John Kerry and Vietnam

For example:

“Generally the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation [of Texas] was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war [with Mexico] which resulted as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory.”

U.S. Grant, Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant (New York, 1885), pages 22-24.

From this site

Mr. Svinlesha: That was a very good, very fair post. You raise some of the same questions I have myself. So let’s take the opposite tack here, and talk about the weakest part of the Swift Vets claims (bearing in mind that none of us have read the actual book yet).

A couple of things stand out that bug me most. First is the doctor’s claim that he treated Kerry and remembers it as nothing more than a scratch. Now, some people have made much out of the fact that he didn’t sign the paperwork. In fact, the paperwork was signed by a Hospitalman, which doesn’t seem out of the ordinary or contradictory. But here’s what bugs me - Who in the hell would remember treating such a superficial wound after 35 years? This guy was the base doctor for a unit that got Purple Hearts like crazy. He must have treated hundreds and hundreds of wounds large and small. Yet, his memory of that seems amazingly clear. This is a wound that, by his own testimony required no treatment othe than a quick swab and a bandaid. And he didn’t even fill out the paperwork. Seems strange.

The other thing that bothers me are the glowing fitness reports that Kerry got then. The explanation I’ve heard is that you had to ‘read between the lines’. The claim is that back then, everyone got ‘glowing’ fitness reports, but the real story could be discerned by things like the number of 'did not observe’s, meaning the officer in question didn’t want to commit himself to saying something nice. I don’t know, but that seems strange to me. What I think would clear this up is if we could compare Kerry’s fitness reports to, say, the fitness reports of the other Swiftees who oppose them. How about they all turn over theirs, and we can put them all together with Kerry’s and compare and contrast?

But I think any officer who claims today that Kerry was, “devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive,” and yet still gave him a good fitness report has some explaining to do. Did he shirk his duty then? If I were a soldier, I’d expect my superiors to keep ‘devious’ officers off the line. So either this guy has changed his opinion, or he wasn’t doing his job in Vietnam, or I don’t understand something about the way the U.S. military works.

On the other side of the subject, Kerry has not released all his fitness reports. Perhaps there ARE some bad ones in there, and he has cherry-picked the best ones for public view. Would you agree with me that Kerry should sign his form 180 authorizing the release of all his missing documents? After all the heat Bush took for not releasing his (and which he ultimately gave in to and signed his own form 180)?

Finally, in regard to the Bronze Star episode of March 13, I believe Kerry was the officer in charge of the whole mission. Now, this was near the end of his stay, when apparently his superiors felt he was so dangerous they were trying to get rid of him (according to the Swiftees). If that’s the case, why was he put in charge of the mission? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

These are the things that bother me. For those reasons, I think the we need to let the arguments against the medals play out. Too many unknowns right now to figure out what’s going on.

I will say this: I think the Swiftvets are sincere. I don’t for a second believe that they are Republican shills. They may be a bunch of hotheads who, after 35 years of telling Kerry stories to each other, may have lost their perspective. They may have mixed some real, valid criticisms which some over-the-top charges that won’t stand up. But they believe in what they are doing.

I also agree with you that I think the prime driving factor here is the Swiftee’s hatred of Kerry for calling them war criminals. And justly so. And I think Kerry should bear some responsibility for his actions in this regard. When he came back from Vietnam he made a lot of very harsh, controversial accusations that today even he admits went to far.

Kerry still has to own up to the fact that he personally bears some responsibility for the treatment of Vietnam veterans. His reckless charges did a lot of damage.

Finally, we get to the Cambodia thing, and so far this is the only real charge we can say to have been proven. The Kerry camp admits he wasn’t there on Christmas Eve. Quite frankly, I don’t believe he was ever there. I think the Boonie Hat story was a cynical lie - an attempt to puff up his war rep and make him seem mysterious. I don’t for a second believe that he ‘mixed up the dates’ of his excellent Cambodian adventure. His story about Christmas is just too detailed and too forcefully told. He made it up. He repeated it on the floor of Congress. He used it to his advantage whenever it was useful. It’s a major slam on his credibility.

As for Bush’s lies, I can see how you’d feel the way you do. I disagree. There is a difference between over-stating evidence that reasonable people can disagree on, and manufacturing fake stories of heroics for personal aggrandizement.

Or let me put it this way - Bush’s claim is MUCH more serious in consequence, but much LESS serious as an evaluation of Bush’s character. Kerry’s story isn’t serious at all in a larger sense, but gives you a much stronger isight into his character.

I’ll bet we can agree on this, though: Isn’t it sad that in one of the most important elections of our time, the choice of leader of the most powerful nation is between these two guys?

For my part, I am thrilled at this point to have John Kerry to vote for. I think he will make a great President. I fail to see why there should be any doubt that he was ever in Cambodia, even if he didn’t spend Christmas Eve there. There is no evidence that he was not, and to suggest that no US service people were in Cambodia before 1970 is a foolish proposition. There is no evidence to suggest that he is lying about any Boonie hat. You offer an initially reasonable post, Sam, but make it appear to be a cynical foot in the door trick with your leaps of logic and personal bias at the end, summing up with a proclamation that all people will be disappointed to vote for John Kerry because he may have been on the border of Cambodia on Christmas Eve rather than across it.

You make charges about what these actions say about a man’s character, as if it would be just fine if he had spent his youth drinking and driving, shirking responsibilities, and doing coke, as long as he doesn’t lie about which side of the Cambodian border he was on when he came under hostile fire.

As to character, I have missed your recantation of the quote you put up of Kerry saying he sped out of the kill zone, or of your forceful statements regarding the navigability and accessibility of the waterways of the Mekong Delta. I have also missed your recantation of a number of other charges, too. What does this say of your own character? What of the character of Magiver, who in this thread now claims Kerry served a 3 1/2 month tour (apologies if that was someone other than you, Magiver).

It seems being fast and loose with facts and information is okay for some, not okay for others. John Kerry and George Bush are hardly peers and not at all equals.

Sevastapol: The Mekong is a huge river. At question is the what the river is like right around the border to Cambodia. The maps I’ve found aren’t very good, but they both show the Mekong splitting into two large waterways, and other than that any other tributaries are so small as to not even be on the maps.

Unfortunately, we aren’t going to be able to settle this unless we can dig up some navigational maps that show the waterways in great detail. After doing some general reading about the area today, however, I will have to admit that I could be wrong on this point. It may be possible for a Swift to make it into Cambodia other than on the two main waterways - I’m not sure.

But it strikes me as a highly unlikely scenario. A swift boat is huge, loud, and has propellers that can be fouled in shallow water. If you’re just inserting a CIA agent on a COVERT mission, why in hell would you use a ship like that when you could use a PBR? Makes about as much sense a covert mission to insert a CIA operative into Iran - using a column of battle tanks.

Hentor: The point is that a PBR has a shallower draft and a water jet propulsion system that is both quieter and can’t foul in marshy waterways. They were the boats that patrolled the Cambodian border. The Swifts were ocean-going vessels that mostly patrolled off the coast of Vietnam, and in the large waterways of the Mekong. Using a Swift in this role just doesn’t make sense to me.

Cite? (Not that he has any obligation)

What a twisted load of crap. How is lying your way into an illegal war and killing thousands of people for no good reason NOT a profound idictment of character. A confused war memory about five miles difference here or there in the middle of the Mekong Delta is trivial in the extreme and the fact that Kerry was there at all speaks volumes about his character.

Have you really drunk that much kool-aid that you’ve managed to convince yourself that (at worst) an exaggerated war story says more about personal character than a guy starting a frigging war and slaughtering thousands of civilians (not to mention a 1000 or so of his own troops) to satisify a personal grudge and make money for his friends?

You can’t be serious.

(And no, IMO, reasonable people cannot disagree on Bush “overstating the evidence.” He lied through his teeth and he KNEW he was lying and he KNEW that he was going to slaughter thousands when he didn’t have the goods. Neither was it “reasonable” for him to give the bird to the rest of the free world and turn into the worst sort of arrogant, bullying, ugly American when he couldn’t get his way. That is the behavior of a child or a half-wit, not a man of maturity, reason and character).

What are the elements of the Cambodia story that are unlikely? None, in fact. Again rather than wholesale fabrication, I think it is more likely that Kerry melded a number of elements into a single narrative, so as to make a rhetorical point more forcibly.

Navigating the Vietnam / Cambodian border region by boat: The waters are the highways there. I was there 10 months ago. Read the rest of the link I provided, bearing in mind the author hasn’t pefected English idiom. It should give you an idea.

That said, from the contents of this thread and many researched posts it appears tolerably clear that US & Khmer forces were traversing the Mekong border region, pretty much at will.

Sauce for the Hamster
Vets debunk Kerry’s hamster rescue.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2104939/

Remiss not to mention my esteem of Mr Svinlesha’s superlative post.

Hentor:

The Cambodia missions are no longer secret. The U.S. government fully admits them. The thing is, the early Cambodia missions were NOT by Swift boat. They were mostly helicopter insertions, from what I can tell. There is no evidence, no paperwork that says John Kerry was ever in Cambodia. All of his superior officers deny it. Since the one Cambodia story that could actually be checked turned out to be a complete lie, I see no reason to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt on this.

I just don’t believe it. Perhaps you can explain this to me - Kerry takes his 50 foot boat deep into Cambodia to inject a CIA agent. Before they get there, the guy says, “Here, take my hat?” Does that make sense to you? Perhaps he was carrying an extra?

Does it seem likely to you that Kerry would carry this hat around in a black briefcase for 35 years? A Boonie Hat is pretty bulky, and would be pretty inconvenient to carry in a briefcase. If someone went to his house and saw it on the wall, I might believe it.

Also, read the set-up. It’s just not believable. An aide whispers to a reporter, “Ask him about his secret compartment!” The guy does, and Kerry is shocked - shocked! that this guy knows about it! “How did you know about that? Even my friends don’t know about it!” What a joke. A clumsy setup that he should have been called on a long time ago. But hey, it gave him a chance to be mysterious, AND to parade the fact that he was in Vietnam and even went on super-secret CIA missions. Give me a break.

See, this is what I love about you. I start a message by conceding points and even offing up my own misgivings about these guys, and you spin it into a TRICK. I guess I can’t win with you.

Bush makes no bones about his reckless youth. And in fact, if Kerry had been caught in a lie 30 years ago and not since, I wouldn’t think much of it. But this is different. The Boonie Hat thing happened just last year. He has repeated his Christmas in Cambodia story repeatedly throughout his adult life. This goes directly to the man’s character.

First, I don’t recant the quote about the ‘kill zone’ because I did read it. I just couldn’t find it again. Frankly, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether you believe me or not, and it says nothing about my character if you don’t. As for recanting my forceful statements about the Mekong, you might want to check the message I left before I read your latest one.

The day you catch me telling elaborate lies about my accomplishments in life, feel free to attack my character. If you want to equate telling lies about one’s accomplishments with not recanting debating points that you don’t happen to agree with, well, that’s your business. I am fully capable of recanting when I believe that it is proper, and in fact I’ve done so in this thread.

When’s the last time you admitted you were wrong on this message board? Should I start attacking your character if I don’t like the answer?

Kerry served exactly four months and twelve days in Vietnam. 3 1/2 months is close - certainly more accurate than those who are saying Kerry volunteered for two tours in 'Nam.

How do you know? We did a lot of things off the books in Cambodia.

Nor should we expect to see any paperwork.

Actually, it DIDN’T turn out to be a “complete lie.” It turned out to be a misrecollection of dates and places from events that occurred 35 years ago.

Well, I DO believe it, so we’re even. Since when did “I don’t believe it” become urgent evidence?

Sure, why not? It sounds too odd to be invented.

I see no reason not to take him at his word. It sounds too odd to be made up.

Your personal incredulity in the matter carries no persuasive value for me. Sorry.

It was rather disingenuous. You didn’t really have much choice in the matter considering that the points you conceded had to be conceded in light of the evidence.

It was a pose of reasonableness leading up to a ridiculously over the top attack on John Kerry’s “character” regarding a trivial detail from his recollections of a 35 year old war story.

Really? I’ve never seen him come clean about his substance abuse or be honest about his evasion of the war or about his lackadaisical attitude towards the safe, cushy duty he did pull.

You have still failed to prove that the hat story is false, nor have you proven that Kerry was never in Cambodia.

Once again, you have not proven that Kerry told any lies. Misremembering an event as having occured acroos the border when it was only on the border does not rise to the level of a “lie” AFAIAC, especially since he was in Cambodia on other occasions and it is quite plausible that he conflated some details in his memory.

Who said Kerry served two tours? I haven’t seen anyone make that claim.

No, not in the thread, or even on this board as far as I know. Wasn’t intending to accuse anyone of anything. And we’re just going to have to disagree on the other stuff. But that’s… okay.

This just in from Drudge

Somebody in one of these threads (I don’t remember who) suggested that Kerry may have confused Christmas with Tet. It now sounds like that could very well be the case. I’ll be interested to see what kind of support Brinkley has for his story.

We haven’t seen the story yet, but Sam, if Brinkley can make a convincing case for Kerry being over the border in January instead of at Christmas, and that he misremebered a Tet celebration as a Christmas celebration, would you still say that Kerry is a liar, or would you concede that it could have been an honest mistake in a decades old recollection?

Well, I’ll cut him some slack, anyway.

Could still have lying-about-being-in-Cambodia related programs!

minty green:

Please, nitpick away!

I agree with you on this point. But speaking perhaps only for myself, it does seem to me opportunistic to condemn that war in no uncertain terms in 1971, and then turn around 30 years later, wrap oneself in a flag and promote oneself as a war hero. Opportunistic at the very least, if not downright hypocritical. Thus I have some sympathy for the Swift Boat vets who, deeply insulted by Kerry’s conduct and public testimony in 1970, are “galled” to see him act the war hero years later.

Not that I’m on the same side of the fence as the Swift Boat vets, mind you. If the free-fire zones were a violation of the Geneva conventions in 1965 – which seems a reasonable interpretation to me – then they are a violation in 2004 as well. War crimes are war crimes, regardless of the “language” one choses to use. I understand that Kerry has to back down from his previous accusations to have any chance of securing the presidency now; it would have been political suicide if he had told Russert, for example, that he still supported his testimony from 1971. But even so, there’s a difference between backing off from the language of that testimony today, on the one hand, and promoting oneself as a “war hero” of that self-same war, on the other. The first is an uncomfortable but perhaps necessary prevarication. The second smacks of outright opportunism and hypocrisy.

In other words, the Swift Boats vets feel that Kerry’s 1971 testimony was a betrayal to them. I don’t; I think he was merely speaking truth to power. However, to promote himself as a war hero now, for a war he condemned as inhumane 30 years ago, seems to me to be a betrayal of his testimony in 1971. YM, naturally, MV.

By the way, let me take the opportunity to compliment you on your excellent catch on the top of page 5 regarding O’Neill’s political orientation. Stellar job, that.

Sam:

Briefly, since I’m posting from work:

I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Kerry has “cherry picked” his fitness reports. If Kerry wants to promote himself as a war hero, and there are questions regarding his service, then yes, as far as I can tell, he should probably sign a 180. It would at the very least clear up any doubts regarding how he got his Purple Hearts.

As a caveat, I just want to add that I’ve never been interested in Bush’s medical records, or anything else of a private nature regarding his term of service, unless that info would help us track down his whereabouts during his mysterious “AWOL” period. I wouldn’t want to make my own medical records available for public scrutiny, so I have some sympathy for Bush, Kerry, et. al., also wishing not to do so.

Gotta go. More later.

Someone is claiming Kerry served 2 tours. From today’s Washington Post, letters page:

The Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61473-2004Aug12_2.html

From [url=]John Kerry’s website:

It seems the Swift Boat tour was his second Tour of Duty and that his first tour was on a ship in the area but it isn’t clear if he saw any combat on his first tour.

In any case. It is true that he volunteered for two Tours of duty and that he specifically requested something more dangerous for his second tour.

Fixed link.

On Kerry’s first tour, he served on the Gridley. The Gridley patrolled in the Phillippines, New Zealand, and for five weeks in the Gulf of Tonkin. I think it might technically have been called a ‘combat tour’ because it spent some time technically in a combat zone, but I don’t think Kerry was ever in danger.

But this dog don’t hunt. Nothing wrong with Kerry serving on the Gridley. Unless someone tries to subtly misrepresent it into suggesting that Kerry did two tours ‘in country’.