What say we let the allegator speak for himself? Perhaps he has something to say to clarify his position.
To be more clear, if he is alledging that decapitation of the enemy in Vietnam was doctrine (as it seems to me he was alledging), then I call that into serious question. Read B.S.
Then if you support that, by all means then, let’s dance, and don’t forget to invite me.
Don’t forget to bring your DD-214 if you want to be credible.
They go at it like schoolboys in parliament, yes, but this is AFTER they are elected. I can only speak for the elections where I live - and here the party fliers are all about issues.
elucidator, I suggest you bring your DDT instead.
They are liars.
That’s so bizzare. It’s just the opposite here. They practice an exagerated politeness after the’re elected (at least in Congress).
Leaving your whole quote so no one has to up/down page:
Reserve Officer’s Training (as I am told by people have been through ROTC or OCS) is, a bit different. Not that it’s not valid training, but the orientation is different, I am told; somewhat less serious, seeing as many reserves never expect to see combat. Officers who came through OCS seem to give less credence to ROTC, but that may not be valid; I don’t know, I was enlisted.
I’ve not heard anything like this from other ROTC officers, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, just that I’ve never heard ROTC or OCS graduates ever mention *anything * like this, even after talking about recent events in Iraq.
I think it’s either a rare or isolated incident. Doctrine, as I understand it, is more universally understood and practiced. While the incident you described as happened to you may be true, this still does not establish it as “doctrine.” Maybe you were being “whooshed?”
How many were in that class? Do you have evidence to support it was taught to other classes? Or is that a guess? Not necessary to answer that, just consider it in light of your statement.
To take one, or even several such incidents, and make the statement that it was “doctrine,” besmirched the memory of war dead who served honorably, and the reputation of those like myself, who spent my year, saw more than my share of blood and guts and killing and never witnessed an atrocity or knew anyone who would have been considered sane and would have cionsidered what you call “doctrine.”
You say “it’s a small point.” Then you won’t mind apologising to those VietNam veterans whose reputations you have impugned.
It was not. If it were, there would be far more of us who knew that and reported it.
BTW, elucidator is watching your six. Wants to duel me over this…
That slime!
Can’t even take time out from his campaigning to drop in and vote for Veterans Health Care Funding (S. 2400)!
Well, not that his vote would have mattered, they needed 60 to pass and got only 49, but you would think that someone who is leaning to hard on the backs of VietNam Veterans would at least have made the effort.
BTW, the Yeas are infused with mostly D, and the Nays are mostly R. FWIW…
Yeah, and your AK-47, and your C-4, and your ham and motherfuckers…
I think it’s safe to say this newspaper isn’t owned by Sun Myung Moon…
Perspective, from The Wall Street Journal.
FWIW.
Now let’s go Bash bush some more…
I can’t help but notice that the president himself lacks a DD-214. All Bush has is a crummy blank line 24 on his ANG-22. Surely you don’t intend to be so elitist as to exclude the president himself as non-credible? He did serve his country in wartime after all.
Probably not this one…
Republicans thwart Kerry’s attempt to vote on veterans’ health care
"Sen. John Kerry, who has missed 118 of the Senate’s 134 votes this year while campaigning for the presidency, canceled a speech on Tuesday, skipped a half-million-dollar fund-raiser and flew back from Denver to vote on veterans’ health benefits.
But Republicans foiled him. They postponed the vote.
The vote would have put Kerry, D-Mass., on record on one of his signature issues - expanding health care for military veterans. It also would have allowed him to end a Senate voting drought that’s prompted some Republicans to call for his resignation.
Republican leaders didn’t let the proposal come to the Senate floor - a maneuver that Minority Leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota blamed on Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee. “Senator Frist noted to me as he was standing here that he didn’t want to accord Senator Kerry the opportunity to vote today,” Daschle said…
President Bush’s campaign criticized the proposal, saying that spending on veterans’ health care had increased by 40 percent under Bush and that the list of veterans waiting for health benefits has declined.
“Mandatory spending increases are the wrong approach for America’s veterans,” said Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt…"
Is this the one you mean? You do know that the Pubbies have pulled this kind of crap more than once, right?
Snakespirit, I don’t want to make this personal. I can’t only tell you what I saw and what I heard. Yes, I was in the class. Yes I took a commission in February 1966, as an infantry lieutenant. Yes, I was on active duty for five years from September 1967 to September 1972. No, I do not know from personal observation whether enemy dead were in fact decapitated and their heads left on stakes for the edification of their fellows. I do not know if the One Star who was present dealt with the instruction. I was not in a position to ask questions, as you can fully understand. What I can and do tell you is that decapitation of enemy dead was a teaching point that day and in that place.
In terms of ROTC, I can tell you that of the 20 guys in my squad bay that summer I have been told that not less than five were killed in Vietnam. I got lucky. The Army let me finish law school and offered me an appointment to the Judge Advocate General’s Corps in exchange for a four year obligation and continued service at the pleasure of the President. I got lucky a second time when the Army decided that they required my services first at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, and then in Europe. I got lucky a third time when the Army accepted my resignation in 1972. While I was never in Vietnam a fair number of the officers, warrant officers, NCOs and enlisted people I served with did serve there. For the most part they were men and boys I trusted to tell the truth and still do. The JAGC was a small and close net group and almost all of us knew each other from the school in Charlottesville or from frequent theater army and practice area conferences or occasional briefings by some brass hat from OTJAG-A on new developments – like the briefing on My Lai in Frankfurt the week before formal charges were filed. In is worth noting that common knowledge among a professional corps concerning a matter of professional interest is much like a man’s community reputation, it is seldom wrong.
If you post suggests I was not in a position to know what was going on it is because you are uninformed of my military history, as I am unaware of yours. If you post suggests that I was just making it up then it was because you do not know me. If your post is just an effort to pick a fight you have chosen the wrong forum. In any event I will not be available to participate in your fight because I am going on vacation on Wednesday and I’ll not be back until after Labor Day – I plan to eat my way from Strasbourg to Nancy, all the way across Alsace-Loraine, much as Sherman marched across Georgia.
Uh huh… 63 people gave their opinion on both the character of Lieutenant Kerry and the events in question. Are you implying these are all Republicans? Did all the Brave Democrats die? Did the Navy only use Republicans for Swift boat duty?
Now contrast their testimony to Kerry’s indictment on the war before Congress. The only thing he could accurately testify about was his own war crimes, which included torching buildings and shooting people in the back. Hardly the atrocities that he described to the world. He gave hearsay testimony about war crimes for which he had no first-hand knowledge about. Who’s the liar? He pissed off a lot of Veterans when he did this. People have long memories for this kind of treatment.
Kerry made his military service the backdrop to his campaign. He mentions Vietnam at every chance. He created the Swiftboat Vets by his actions and now he has to deal with it. He can start with his medical records or he can apologize for testifying about events he knew nothing about.
Can I have a page 13.
Only of he wants to argue what happened on-ground in VietNam…
My DD-214 shows 12 months in-country.
Do not tear up the railroads! The French will declare war on us, then the Germans, then the Germans will invade Poland out of habit, then they’ll all surrender but we’ll never, ever hear the end of it…
My mother had cancer. Didn’t make her an oncologist. Just a victim.
None of the above, and I don’t want to make this personal either.
I was there, on the ground in VN with the 4th, half my time with infantry on the front lines and I contend there was no “doctrine” of enemy mutilation that extended to the central Highlands and the 4th Division.
I have not heard of such “doctrine:” from other areas, either. I have heard of isolated incidents.
Your class and your BG notwithstanding; I wasn’t there, I don’t know what happened there, but I was on the ground for 12 months in 1968 and I know what happened there, and how we were instructed, and your story doesn’t fit my experience. I resent the way you state it, because it implicates ALL VietNam veterans.
Maybe when you come back we can discuss it further.
Hey, I know this one. “motherfuckers” are beans right? I read it in a book once.
No, I meant the postponed vote reported in my DAV magazine.
At least he tried.
On the other hand, from first-hand experience, I can tell you that there is currently a “mandatory 30-day maximum waiting period for appointments,” and they way they meet this minimum at Tripler Army Hospital is to overbook within the 30-day period, call to cancel several days before the appointment, and reschedule within 30 days, ad-infinitum, until the patient is seen.
That’s how Bush decreased the waiting list. First hand info.
Thanks for clarifying Kerry’s efforts,
Oh, spare me. I really expect better from you.
And, I’ll bet your mother could tell the oncologist a thing or two about pain and suffering.
Barf.