For those who are having problems keeping track, here’s the Reader’s Digest summary of the whole Swift Bullshitters for Bush bruhaha:
Everything the Swft Boat Veterans claim is a lie.
Could the irony of the O’Neill-Nixon exchange be any more sublime? Ironic for O’Neill, of course, because now has to either admit that he’s been lying about the Swifties ability to go into Cambodia or to say that he lied to Nixon, which would make him guilty of exactly the same thing he’s accusing Kerry of having done (saying he was in Cambodia when he wasn’t).
But it’s also ironic for Nixon, who had no idea he was helping in no small way to torpedo an attempt to derail a Presidential run for Kerry (a man Nixon hated) some thirty-three years hence by impeaching his own handpicked, anti-Kerry character-assassin.
I can’t believe Nixon actually got him to say “in a swiftboat.” Is it possible that Minty Green actually found a Being John Malkovich style portal to Nixon’s brain, c. 1971 and cross-examined O’Neill through some sort of time-straddling corporeal possession?
This is just too perfect to be a coincidence.
To Diogenes’ list, for sake of completion, should be added Kerry’s admission that he wasn’t in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968, in contradiction of previous writings and testimony.
You know, just to be fair.
Actually, they are talking about it now. Check out their latest ad at their site.
(Aside to furt: Re: Your question on my question. There is a big part up the center of your hair.)
Sam, would you address my specific questions asked previously about your own thinking?
Also, please notice that once again the cite that you quoted is not specific about who the spokesmen were and what they said. You would think the SBVT would be pretty excited about releasing the exact quotation if it really says what they claim that it does.
That is not the name of the doctor on the official naval medical records. This is a recording.
A month ago, probably not, but it’s about to take care of itself. The time limit is almost up for the 527 ads. The damage has been done. A number of their key witnesses have been damaged, there probably isn’t much more political advantage to be gained from it. It would be pretty easy now for to have Bush make a disngeneous plea to make the campaign about “issues” and sort of leave the Swifties out to dry. They’ll still have their book and website and I’m sure they’ll try to hang around as much as they can but Rove will quietly sever all ties (in fact, that may be exactly what’s going on with the Bush campaigners resigning), the Bush campaign will accept whatever residual advantage the Swifties can bring on their own while pretending that they’ve moved on.
I think the Swifties have peaked and have reached the point of vanishing returns. Their TV interviews are starting to be all about their own considerable body of inconsistencies now. Any interview that John O’Neill does from now on is going to start with the Nixon question, then move on to other Swifty problems.
The Republican Convention is coming up next week, then its the debates. These events will sweep the Swifty stuff out of the news, but Rove has accomplished what he wanted. He took Kerry’s biggest positive and managed to create enough smoke and confusion to foster at least the impression that Kerry’s war record is questionable for those who want Kerry’s war record to be questionable.
All in all, I think this Swifty flap is on the downside and that Kerry has taken minimal damage. It hasn’t really moved the polls very much from what I’ve seen.
Yeah, he was in Cambodia in January and February instead. Ho hum.
Truthfully, that was my assumption about Tet, Dio. Are we sure about that? It’s entirely reasonable, according to a brief, nonrelated survey of assorted war veterans, to be a… ah, little imprecise about your memories of exactly what month it is, when you’re ‘in country’. Asked in a family and friends shooting expedition last weekend. (Not hunting, paper targets. Great fun.)
Boy, you told me. I guess I’ll “disappear” now. Oh, have I got a point? You know I got a point, cause I rubbed your nose in it.
One final note of hypocrisy.
Compare the celebration and jubilation over Michael Moore’s “Farenheit 911” with the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth over the Swift Boat Veterans.
It’s fukin’ comical.
I propose that, in your honor, we adopt “to Snake” as SDMB slang meaning “to proactively complain about martyred misunderstanding and abuse in advance of anyone actually giving a shit”.
Moderator’s Note: Elucidator, it’s really not necessary to use racial slurs (“cracker” and “peckerwood”) to make your point. So please don’t do it.
Just a word of advice from Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator here, but saying “[members of the political group I’m arguing with] make my skin crawl” is likely to generate more heat than light.
I’m not sure anyone expected light.
Yesterday on WJR’s Mitch Albom show, Rich McCann, one of the veterans that the SBVFT features on its web site. McCann complained that the Swifties called him and asked him one question, I believe it was “did Kerry deserve his medals?” Being on a different boat, he answered “no opinion.” Lo and behold, when the website comes up, McCann is depicted as answering the question “is Kerry fit to be president?” with “no opinion.” McCann has tried repeatedly to get this group to remove him from their website to no avail. Unfortunately, WJR does not provide transcripts so I am only quoting from memory.
McCann also stated that in the heat of battle, you are absolutely focused on your own ship. You may be cognizant of other friendly ships being in the area, but you are zoned in on your ship and your men. He also stated that being the case, he would accept as gospel the word of the men who actually served on the ship with Kerry.
My personal feeling is that had Kerry not protested the war, the Swifties would not have never crawled out from under the rock. They have an axe to grind simply because of the war protests. It is also clear that they have significant financial and legal ties to the Bush campaign. Their testimony at times conflicts with their own prior statements and Naval documents that they signed off on. If they falsified those Naval documents 35 years ago, perhaps the Swifties should be court-martialed and their military benefits revoked. It is clear that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have very little interest in the truth, nor are they particularly swift.
You notice Razorsharp has quietly ignored me outing him as a bit of a white supremicist and media conspiracy theorist earlier in the thread. With his own words shall he be known, hm?
You got a cite for that? Because I have a cite from a Fred Kaplan piece in Slate that says John Kerry most certainly was in a position to be in Cambodia on Christmas like he said.
To summerize, Kaplan, using Kerry’s diary as a source shows 1) he was well within reach of the Cambodian border at the time and 2) he was reading a book on how to deal with Cambodians which, if he thought he was going to see some, would be a smart thing to do.
And, since it was supposed to be a secret mission, naturally it’s a little tough to get other verification.
I’ll grant you, Mr. Moto that it’s just possible you may have gotten this point right on Kerry making some kind of admission like the one you mention. However, in view of how many Swift Boat stories have turned out to be lies and, in view of the fact that he was there for sure in January or February and, in view of the fact that George Bush is a near-chronic liar I think it’s fair to ask exactly what significance you place on what to many people would seem a frankly trivial point?
Mr. Moto, I just had an inspiration. I would like to conduct a test. President Bush, as I have often mentioned, has repeatedly — that is repeatedly — asserted that we had to invade Iraq because Saddam Hussein wouldn’t let inspectors in. Of course that isn’t true. (This untruth is, as most of you already know just one of a literal embarassment of examples coming from our president.) Hans Blix and his people were inspecting away and had to be pulled out before we could start bombing Bahgdad. Should we, therefore, in any way doubt that George Bush has the character to be president since he refuses to tell the truth about something that happened just a little over a year ago on his orders — and which DIRECTLY relates to his conduct as president.? In your opinion, is the president a liar or does he sincerely believe what he says? And if he does believe something that isn’t true how exactly are we to evaluate his character then?
I would love to see your answer. Will there be one?
Oh, Razorsharp! Yoo hoo! I really wanna know what you meant with your Elvis statement. Well, and any number of other things, but I only expect a response inre “Elvis was a conservative.”
Hell, I didn’t even expect much heat. This is Razorsharp fercrissakes.
Oh, absolutely. And they have every right to be pissed at Kerry for any testimony that he gave. Of course, they can’t claim it’s wrong, but they can gnash teeth all damned day. What is so amusing is watching them get caught with their schlongs in the salad shooter. And watching Bush apologists rush to their defense. All I see this morning is assholes and elbows. Life is good.
Yeah, braintree, I have a cite. This was an admission from the Kerry campaign, just as good as an admission from him.
I don’t think you can get more authoritative than that, and nobody seems to be arguing this particular point anymore.
Except you.
Gold Leader: I can’t maneuver!
Gold 5: Stay on target.
Gold Leader: We’re too close!
Gold 5: Stay on target.
Take the lesson of Gold Leader to heart: Stay the hell on target. If you want to Pit the fellow, do so. But jumping around like an excited kid shouting, ‘Look at my post? Didja see my post? Huh? Huh? Didja see it?!?!’, isn’t advancing matters much in this thread.
On a happier note, Drudge is reporting that according to Bookscan, Unfit for Command is the best selling book in the nation. Heh, thanks for the publicity, Mssr.Kerry.
So it has a lot of pictures.
This is news?
When did Brutus become a Moderator?
Hate sells. A lot of anti-Clinton books hit number one too. Didn’t help his opponents.
Do you care if the book is honest or are you just happy to smear a Democrat and truth be damned?