John Kerry and Vietnam

[GLWasteful]

@Magiver

The problem is he left one skeleton behind. His Jane Fonda impression did not go unnoticed.

Okay, just like elucidator, I’ve grown tired of the conflation of Kerry with Jane Fonda. In no way, shape or form was Kerry like Fonda. For one glaring example, Kerry is male, while Fonda is female. She was a vacuous twit. Sorta like those who do their damnedest to attach her name to Kerry’s. If you have evidence that the two of them got together to smoke dope and rub their little black books together, consider this your invitation to show it. Otherwise, learn all about intellectual honesty and once you have learned something, then act on it.

As I’ve said before, even Doonsbury picked up on his self promotion. . .

And I felt it went without saying that Doonesbury is a fucking cartoon. Or, to put it another way, “So what?”

Think back to how angry the Vets were when Jane Fonda apologized.

She didn’t. Think back to when you knew what in hell you were talking about. You cannot deny that you’re speaking out of your ass right now.

There’s also an interesting paradox over how soldiers were treated. If you talk to the Vets who went in at the beginning of the war they were treated like heroes. On the return trip they are spit on.

Who, precisely, was spat on? I would very much like to know. Please direct them to the e-mail address that’s in my profile.

I’ll also disagree with you on this. He was dating Kennedy’s, sailing with Kennedy’s nd he probably washed their dogs for all I know. I’ve read more than one article that say’s he was influenced by John F. Kennedy’s service when he changed over to Swiftboat duty. KERRY BIO And your logic that he didn’t want to spoil his love of aircraft just doesn’t fly with me. I know a lot of Airline Pilots who own their own planes just for the fun of it.

Well, I read the bio, and it contains a single reference to Kerry emulating Kennedy:

He read a book about President Kennedy’s World War II experiences on a patrol boat, PT-109, which one day would help inspire Kerry to volunteer for duty on a Navy patrol boat in Vietnam.

It’s not a direct quote, but a journalist making a point. Perhaps you’re right, but I’m inclined to think not. On the other hand, in a recent New Yorker Kerry was quoted as saying that he was told to go into the Navy, because he loved flying too much to risk turning it into something with less than pleasant overtones. Alas, I cannot provide a link. I will try to find it this evening and provide issue and page numbers. So, I’ll take a direct quote from the person in question over your statement that my claim “just doesn’t fly” with you.

@Magiver

Just as a point of order a pilot’s license has no expiration date.

Yet, you could not give me an amount of money large enough to get into a plane piloted by Bush fils.

Hell, I’ve seen what he does on a bicycle. Or a Segway. Or with a pretzel.

And what you consider humor, isn’t. It’s pissing and moaning that people are abusing you while you attempt, oh so vainly, to abuse those selfsame people yourself. If I had to provide a word that characterizes it, I would say, “pitiful” and/or “sad”.

@Mr. Moto

I’m certainly not clinging to the image of the spitting protester. I haven’t brought it up at all to support my arguments. And I don’t see anyone clinging to the subject quite so hard as you.

Well, since Magiver is the one who mentioned it most recently, then I’m left with no alternative but to believe that you’re not paying any attention.

And Bob Greene was an. . .interesting. . .person. However, due to his jingoistic view of what America once was, I’m not sure that I would give him too much credence. Of course, Duty was quite good. I always like when people write about relationships that they had with their fathers.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@GLWasteful

Who, precisely, was spat on? I would very much like to know. Please direct them to the e-mail address that’s in my profile.

Well, Rambo for one. He was also called a baby-killer and vile crap like that. So it’s true.

[elucidator]

@GLWasteful

…Yet, you could not give me an amount of money large enough to get into a plane piloted by Bush…

The landing was a catastrophic success. There were no survivors.

[Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew]

@DoctorJ

21-loogie salute

I know everyone’s sick of this, but I can’t help it: band name!!!

[SnakeSpirit]

@elucidator

What is hurtful about this lie is that it precisely reverses the truth. The people I knew were entirely sympathetic to the plight of the returning veteran. Of course we were, we knew them! Not one of us didn’t have a brother, cousin, buddy, who was drafted and shipped out. Is it impossible for you to accept that a political opponent is a decent human being, whose motives are grounded in humanity and morality?

So, this is a personal thing for you, because you and those you knew in the anti-war movement didn’t do such things, and you feel it’s unfair being blamed.

I’m with you 100% elucidator because that is how we VietNam Veterans feels every time some know-nothing parrots the 'whacked-out VN Vet" line and asks us things like, “did you kill any babies?” or “How many villages did you burn?” or even “Did you see or participate in any atrocities?” I got that one online just yesterday.

So you know how it feels to be unfairly blamed? Join the club.

For the record: I never got spat on, and I only talked to one VN Vet who said he did. I didn’t see it. I think it was a minority thing, but I believe it happened, and I don;'t blame organized VN protestors, but just hopped-up crazies riding your coattails cause it was cool.

I don’t hold it against kerry for what he did; he did what he thought was right, and tried to expose atrocities. He was young, and went a bit overboard, but that’s understandable. Had he joined jane Fonda behind an anti-aircraft gun in North Vietnam, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

I received a lot of discrimination as a Vietnam vet. Before there were laws preventing it, I was passed up for jobs on the assumption that I might be too “unstable,” or that I “wouldn’t fit in.” I received a measure of compassion, too, from people who were not reactive, and who understood the truth of what we went through.

So you know how it feels. Good.

[GLWasteful]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Well, Rambo for one. He was also called a baby-killer and vile crap like that. So it’s true.

Yeah, but didn’t he go ahead and become the whacked out 'Nam vet that SnakeSpirit alludes to?

Plus, he took out Brian Dennehy. And Brian Dennehy was becoming way too fucking full of himself.

Now that I think of it, he fulfilled all of the stereotypes: spat upon; crazy as a shithouse rat once engaged; killing machine; kicked Brian Dennehy’s ass. Was he by any chance a surfer from California, too? Who had previously been a farm boy from Kansas?

@elucidator

The landing was a catastrophic success. There were no survivors.

Heh. . .whenever I need to think of something that makes me smile, I think of “catastrophic success”. Well, and Kerry taking the oath in January of 2005.

[elucidator]

@GLWasteful

…Now that I think of it, he fulfilled all of the stereotypes:…

You forgot one: “Do we get to win this time?” Because we would have won, doncha know, if it weren’t for all those wimpy and weak civilians back in the world.

[ZombiesAteMyBrain]

@SnakeSpirit

EX-FUCKING-SCUSE ME???

Jane Fonda NEVER apologised.

She said that she ‘regretted her actions.’ This is not an apology.

This is not saying, “I’m wrong, I apologise.”

Jane Fonda was an eejit - but I think you could give her some credit for at least expressing regret.

Has GWB ever expressed even the slightest regret for getting your country [and mine too, for that matter] into an unjustifiable war with Iraq - in which thousands of innocent civilians, and hundreds of servicemen from both of our countries, were killed and injured? Not to mention the prison camps, torture etc?

Nope, he says ‘Bring it on’ - and makes a phony declaration of ‘Mission Accomplished’ which I’m sure is a great comfort to the families of the servicemen who have been killed or injured since that date!

Reminds me of a song of Janis Ian’s

I HEARD OF A PLAN
IN THE PRESIDENT’S MANSION
HIGH UP IN THE SKY
AND IT CALLED FOR A SACRIFICE
AND MY BROTHER PAID THE PRICE
SENT HIM HOME IN A BAG
THE AMERICAN FLAG
WAS DRAPED AROUND THE BOX
AND THE COFFIN LID WAS LOCKED
AND THE NOTE SAID “THANKS A LOT”

[Magiver]

@elucidator

Found an article by the author of the book here:

RLG

Site may be taken down soon, so you might want to hurry. So long as you’re so anxious to preserve the “spirit of the Boards”. And all.
“…I also found historical evidence for what I came to call “grist” for the myth. There are newspaper reports, for example, of pro-war demonstrators spitting on anti-war activists. In their retelling over the years, the oral accounts of these incidents could easily get reinterpreted and inverted and made into stories about activists spitting on veterans. There is also a record of military authorities warning GIs that they might experience hostility from opponents of the war. Most interesting in this regard were the warnings issued to Vietnam-bound troops that their families might receive harassment phone calls from communist sympathizers saying the soldier had been wounded or killed…”

(emphasis added)

Besides, why are you so married to this nugget of disinformation? If you have any real faith in the validity of your opinions, you could shrug this off as being insignificant. Which it is. If the Viet Nam war was a noble experiment, conducted by men honestly seeking the best, why should you care? Of course, it wasn’t, was it? We know that from the confessions of the men who conducted that war, don’t we?

I’m not married to it half as much as you are trying to divorce it. You can deny it all you want and it doesn’t change the fact that it happened. I know what I know because I’ve interviewed quite a few vets over the years (about 15 years). I’ve made a point of it as part of my general interest in history. I’ve taken enough courses in both journalism and statistics to know how to poll for real information. I never ask leading questions. My questions were always broad: how did you feel at the start of the war, … during the war, … after the war? What specific events were the most rewarding… the most disappointing, … the most traumatic etc…? When you get to “traumatic” BINGO. I don’t know how many your cite author interviewed but I heard quite a few stories about direct confrontation. Many of them ended in our topic.

What is hurtful about this lie is that it precisely reverses the truth. The people I knew were entirely sympathetic to the plight of the returning veteran. Of course we were, we knew them! Not one of us didn’t have a brother, cousin, buddy, who was drafted and shipped out. Is it impossible for you to accept that a political opponent is a decent human being, whose motives are grounded in humanity and morality?

You may well have been a 70’s peacenik running around with flowers in your hair waving rainbow colored signs. However, I remember watching the news in the 70’s and seeing rabid protestors at various anti-war rallies. And after watching the news about the convention today, not much has changed. You have your naked peaceniks, and you have your hooded anarchists. Since I’ve butted heads with the latter, I have no doubt about the events related to my by the people I’VE TALKED TO. Is it impossible for you to acknowledge that many Vets were mistreated upon return by indecent human beings, whose motives were grounded in anarchy and hate. Don’t expect me to believe all anti-war participants were flower children. Absolutely no way.

FYI “peaceniks” made it into spell check.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

What Magiver’s post really boils down to is that he can’t support his assertions and can’t provide a cite. (Sorry, Magiver, but your personal assurances have no currency here)
The cites can be totalled up thusly:

elucidator: 1

Magiver: 0

Advantage goes to 'lucy.

[Magiver]

@Diogenes the Cynic

What Magiver’s post really boils down to is that he can’t support his assertions and can’t provide a cite. (Sorry, Magiver, but your personal assurances have no currency here)
The cites can be totalled up thusly:

elucidator: 1

Magiver: 0

Advantage goes to 'lucy.

Yes, except we are talking about Kerry and the Veteran votes he lost by his own actions. All I’ve said is that I believe them.

Veterans: 1

Kerry: 0

Advantage goes to President Bush.

But keep saying that Veterans are liars and their feelings of Kerry are without merit. Hell, I’ll even pitch in for the commercial.

Elucidator is going to be crushed if Kerry’s new campaign staff talks him into an apology. Maybe if he merely regrets his behavior it will go down better.

Sorry for the knife twisting but y’all just don’t get it. There is a whole field of Veteran voters out there that Kerry can’t harvest. And all you want to do is deny they exist.

[pantom]

Methinks you guys (on the Kerry side, that is) are being whooshed.
We’ve gone from talking about Kerry’s Vietnam experience to talking about Kerry’s post-Vietnam activities, in synch with the ads the Swifties are putting out. Chance? Maybe the first few pages. Coincidence? The next following perhaps. By now, it’s enemy action.
This neatly diverts attention from a Prez who’s created nary a job, and who has failed to catch Osama, Zawahiri, or Mullah Omar yet. In other words, a man who has accomplished exactly nothing. Actually, less than nothing when you consider the lives and money he’s wasted and the way he’s used it all as an excuse to restrict our liberty and expand his own power as President.
So how do you run on a goose egg? By slandering your opponent. The posts by the Kerry opponents above amount to a polite, perhaps not so polite, accusation of treason.
I think it’s high time to ignore these people. Whether or not they’re officials of the RNC, they’re doing yoemanlike work keeping the conversation from the embarassing truth about the Incompetent-in-Chief and his bumbling crew and the ruin they’ve visited upon so many of our countrymen, and will visit on all of us if they’re given another four years to continue down the road to ruination.

[Shayna]

@Magiver

Yes, except we are talking about Kerry and the Veteran votes he lost by his own actions. All I’ve said is that I believe them.

Veterans: 1

Kerry: 0

Advantage goes to President Bush.

But keep saying that Veterans are liars and their feelings of Kerry are without merit. Hell, I’ll even pitch in for the commercial.

Elucidator is going to be crushed if Kerry’s new campaign staff talks him into an apology. Maybe if he merely regrets his behavior it will go down better.

Sorry for the knife twisting but y’all just don’t get it. There is a whole field of Veteran voters out there that Kerry can’t harvest. And all you want to do is deny they exist.

Tell you what, dude, I’ll happily concede that Kerry has alienated a “whole field of Veteran voters,” if you’ll stop deluding yourself into thinking you’re speaking for, or that they represent, all Veterans. You don’t, and they don’t. And seeing you list Kerry’s name in a different category from Veterans, as if he weren’t one himself, is offensive.

[Mr.Moto]

Just out of curiosity, Shayna, do you happen to be a veteran yourself?

I’m one, and I work with a whole bunch. I have a lot of friends who are veterans besides. Mostly Navy, though with some Army and Air Force guys in the mix. One of my neighbors is a Marine.

Of these folks, only about 15% are voting for Kerry. The rest are going for Bush.

In addition, many of those going for Bush are vehemently anti-Kerry. I don’t know of anybody in this group who were at all impressed by his medal throwing incident or his testimony before Congress. Some folks are just more willing to overlook this than others.

Take from this what you will. I’ll happily concede that there are veterans for Kerry if you’ll concede that he has a major problem with veterans. His cool reception yesterday at the American Legion convention proves that.

[Banquet_Bear]

@MMI

In today’s Billings Gazette (located via Atrios) there is a story about several Swift Boat veterans whose names appeared on the SBVT letter who neither agree with SBVT nor would have signed the letter, had they been asked to. (this is not to say that they endorse the officialUSN/John Kerry version of events - one acknowledges that he has no knowledge of the disputed events (nor any desire to recollect his time in Vietnam)).

Does this particular mendacity affect any of the SDMB SVBT supporters opinions of the group’s credibility?

http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc

…as everybody seems to have skipped this excellent cite, I thought I’d just quote a couple of passages:

The letter, which was posted on the Swift Boat Veter-ans for Truth Web site, claims the Demo-cratic presidential candidate has “grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that (Vietnam) war.”

The letter also criticizes Kerry for trying to change his image from a critic of the war to a war hero.

“After reading the letter,” Anderson said, “it kind of got under my skin. I had never come across a situation where someone used my name without my support or approval. It’s not a very comforting feeling.”

What’s worse, he said, he disagrees with the letter.

“Had they asked me to use my name, I wouldn’t have allowed them to,” he said.

“This is the fourth or fifth time someone has called me or e-mailed me in regard to signing this damn letter,” he wrote in an e-mail to Anderson. “I don’t agree with it and want no part of it and especially don’t want my name on it.”

Both men have tried to contact the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth to have their names removed from the list. Neither have had any success.

“I can’t seem to get a response when I reply to their e-mail,” Wedge said.

“They come back undeliverable.”

Anderson said he first learned about the situation last week when he received an e-mail from a third party. The e-mail, from a Tom Pyle, said Pyle had contacted a dozen men whose names showed up on the list. Of the dozen, three said they had not given permission, Anderson said.

“That leads me to believe that as many as 25 percent of the names are fictitious supporters of that group,” he said.

Anderson does not know how the Swift Boat Vets for Truth got his name, but it appears exactly as it has appeared on rosters at swift boat vet reunions. He suspects the list was pulled from the Swift Boat Sailors Association, a nonpolitical, not-for-profit organization linking swift boat veterans.

Wedge said he’s known about the list for several months. Unlike Anderson, he remembers receiving an e-mail asking if he wanted to sign the letter in support.

He speculates that his name was automatically added to the list when he opened the e-mail.

Unbelievable. Tell me, how much credibility do the Swift Boat Veterans have now?

[GLWasteful]

@Magiver

But keep saying that Veterans are liars and their feelings of Kerry are without merit. Hell, I’ll even pitch in for the commercial.

You mean the one where a group of veterans says that some other veterans are liars (despite the fact that they’re not) and that their feelings of Kerry are without merit? Newsflash, Sunshine, the Swifties already made it.

Sorry for the knife twisting but y’all just don’t get it. There is a whole field of Veteran voters out there that Kerry can’t harvest. And all you want to do is deny they exist.

Who has claimed that they don’t exist? Show me one person who has denied that there exist veterans who won’t vote for Kerry. Just one. See, this is some more of that talking outta yer ass that I mentioned yesterday. Too, as Shayna pointed out, there are a lot of veterans who will be voting for Kerry. So what was the point that you were straining to make again?

And I would very much like to hear from the vets you have interviewed who were spat upon. E-mail address is still in my profile.

@Mr. Moto

I have a lot of friends who are veterans. . .Of these folks, only about 15% are voting for Kerry. The rest are going for Bush. In addition, many of those going for Bush are vehemently anti-Kerry. I don’t know of anybody in this group who were at all impressed by his medal throwing incident or his testimony before Congress.

Well, considering your position on the political spectrum, I think that 15% is pretty high. And are you claiming that those of your friends who are voting for Kerry are unimpressed with his medal throwing? Yet they’re still voting for him? Wow, Bush fils musta pissed them off something terrible, eh?

And just to give a face to the other side: Of the veterans I know and am acquainted with, probably no more than 5%, if that, are voting for Bush fils. The vast majority of them say that Bush was a coward when he joined the TANG, and that he has surrounded himself with sissy hawks. To be fair, they use terms much more forceful and profane than “sissy hawk”, but I bow to the belief that this is a family board.

Some folks are just more willing to overlook this than others.

Damnit, Sparky, nobody is overlooking anything.
Some folks are just too intellectually lazy to do anything more than repeat talking points.

And Kerry’s reception at the American Legion is nothing compared to what happened when Clinton spoke before them. And Clinton, as you may recall, was someone who was more analogous to Cheney, Ashcroft, Perle or Wolfowitz.

And, Banquet Bear? I’d be willing to bet that the percentage of people whose names are being used against their wishes is somewhat higher than 25%.

[Shayna]

@Mr. Moto

Just out of curiosity, Shayna, do you happen to be a veteran yourself?

Just out of curiosity, Mr. Moto, of what relevance could that possibly be?

@Mr. Moto

I’m one, and I work with a whole bunch. I have a lot of friends who are veterans besides. Mostly Navy, though with some Army and Air Force guys in the mix. One of my neighbors is a Marine.

What, is this some kind of contest as to who knows more veterans? My father is one, my grandparents were, I work with some, live next door to some and know some more. That still doesn’t make me qualified to speak for all veterans, or pretend that the handful I know represent a meaningful sampling.

@Mr. Moto

Of these folks, only about 15% are voting for Kerry. The rest are going for Bush.

Care to submit your methodology and study criteria? Or did you arrive at that number by pulling it out of your lower orifice? And of what relevance is it?

@Mr. Moto

In addition, many of those going for Bush are vehemently anti-Kerry. I don’t know of anybody in this group who were at all impressed by his medal throwing incident or his testimony before Congress. Some folks are just more willing to overlook this than others.

And I don’t know anyone who gives a shit about his medal throwing, and many who are impressed by the courage he showed in speaking the truth in his testimony before Congress. SO WHAT?

@Mr. Moto

Take from this what you will.

Nothing. Because that’s what its relative worth is.

@Mr. Moto

I’ll happily concede that there are veterans for Kerry if you’ll concede that he has a major problem with [SOME] veterans.

Do you read? I believe I was the one who first made this concession in Post #1070, immediately above yours. It’s getting really tiring having to redirect you to my posts so you can review what I actually wrote, rather than ignoring it or making shit up. And it’s especially annoying when it’s right there in front of your face, as the last post in the thread when you hit the “reply” button and not 3 or 4 pages back, where you might have to go hunting for it.

[SnakeSpirit]

@pantom

This neatly diverts attention from a Prez who’s created nary a job, and who has failed to catch Osama, Zawahiri, or Mullah Omar yet. In other words, a man who has accomplished exactly nothing.

pantom lying about Bush is not the way to get kerry elected! You’re falling right into the hands of the conservatives when you spout stuff like that, cause they will counter with all he has done to combat terrorism. They’ll tell you he caught Saddam, broke the back of al Quida, gave tax refunds. Whose side are you on?

Prove that Bush is running a fast and loose campaign, don’t start running fast and loose for Kerry. Show that Kerry’s followers have integrity, not just biased opinions.

[SnakeSpirit]

Looking back over the last few posts in these last few pages it’s evident that this thread has just devolved into a mud-slinging match. Instead of conquering ignorance, we’re generating it.

If this thread gets civil again, someone give me a shout, otherwise:
See you at the polls, folks. We all know what’s going to happen there already; it’s just the waiting…

Unless of course something REALLY BIG comes down before November…

[Magiver]

@Shayna

Tell you what, dude, I’ll happily concede that Kerry has alienated a “whole field of Veteran voters,” if you’ll stop deluding yourself into thinking you’re speaking for, or that they represent, all Veterans. You don’t, and they don’t. And seeing you list Kerry’s name in a different category from Veterans, as if he weren’t one himself, is offensive.

Well congratulations. It took 22 pages for someone to get it right. It’s not my fight, and it’s not your fight. It’s a whole bunch of voters (Veterans) that Kerry tried to woo back with a campaign theme of JOHN KERRY, VETERAN.

And I’m not sure how I’m supposed to relate the disenfranchised Veteran and include Kerry if he is the subject of the disenfranchisement.