the Memory Hole had 5 minutes of it as of 26 June 2003, here . I ran across it this past spring.
I almost feel bad for starting this shitstorm.
Almost.
First of all, I’m of the view that President Bush did nothing wrong or unremarkable when he stayed put for those few minutes. Certainly turning on the TV wouldn’t have helped any. All of us remember what great information we got from the news that day. :rolleyes:
I also don’t think Kerry did anything unremarkable, save for displaying his usual indecision. I do find it strange, though, that after the criticism hurled at Bush for his seven minute “lapse”, he’s admit to “not thinking” for forty. That’s just handing your political enemies ammo, and Kerry is a great ammo carrier.
I really started this to see if anybody else saw the supreme joke in all of this, that a right-wing Michael Moore could have used footage of the stunned Democrats in that conference room to devastating effect. How would forty minutes of “not thinking” look on a movie screen?
Apparently, pervert is the only one around here with a sense of humor. Hats off to you, sir.
Seriously, Moto, have you read any of this thread? Seriously?
Mr. Moto, how did you hear about the WTC? What did you do immediately after hearing about it?
Actually, on the day it happened, I was in a secure Navy facility in Washington, DC with some connectivity to intel resources. When the second tower was hit, the base was secured. Nobody could enter or leave for hours.
We occupied our time on the secure webservers trying to find some decent news about the event. We didn’t rely much on the network news feeds, for they didn’t seem up to the task that day.
When the Pentagon was hit, we went up to the roof of the building and watched the smoke rise across the river.
I finally got home and was able to kiss my wife very late in the afternoon, even though work ended much earlier. After they finally unlocked the base gates, I had to deal with a complete gridlock of Washington traffic.
I still have to drive past the wall of the Pentagon, every day, where the big gaping hole was. There’s a slight variation in the color of the stone, to remind you where the rebuilding occurred.
That was my day. I won’t soon forget it. And I can tell you, we were really busy for months afterward, for which I am thankful.
Where’s the funny? Jokes are supposed to have some funny in them.
You mean you tried to find out more information? What for? What could you have done? Wouldn’t it have been better to spend that time rolling your eyes around in your head and listening to a story about a goat?
It did appear on his face. I think he had a complete spaced out, glazed over look in his eyes.
So, because he volunteered, then whatever he does must of necessity be spun in the worst possible way? Somehow, I imagine that your rather bizarre rule will not apply to Kerry who, as it happens, is campaigning, imploring, beseeching, kissing the baby, and kissing the butt.
That’s what happens when you make up rules as you go along — eventually, you start contradicting other rules, making strange exceptions, and picking at facts like Lucy and Ethyl in a candy factory. The fact is that Bush is the new Clinton. Those who hate him find fault in everything he does. They operate from the initial premise that he must be bashed about everything no matter how trivial or how open to interpretation. They then proceed from there, justifying their inferences along the way with wild Adlerian rationalizations, such as he “wasn’t drafted”.
Well, seeing as how we were a support and backup planning site for the Tomahawk program, lots of things.
We put in place our plan to back up our data. We then started to plan for the possibility that primary Tomahawk sites might plausibly be terrorist targets. Therefore, we started to gear up for possible mission planning at the Washington site.
When it became clear that bin Laden was responsible, we collected as much information on Afghanistan as we could, to update our database and aid future planning.
Now, keep in mind, as a Navy facility, our chain of command ran right up to the President. But we certainly didn’t need a phone call from him to accomplish all of this. This was done according to existing plans and commands given at the time by local commanders.
And now for the third time - it is not necessary for the President to ask specifically for his staff to collect as much accurate information as quickly as humanly possible - THEY ARE DOING THAT ANYWAY. And therefore the fact that Bush isn’t standing at their shoulders nagging does not imply that therefore the information was not being gathered as fast as it could be.
This was the largest terrorist attack in US history - did you think that his staff was sitting around with their fingers up their noses waiting to be asked?
Put it this way - when the attacks occured, did you feel you needed to call CNN and tell them that they might want to find out more about things? Or did you correctly assume that they would be able to do their jobs without being specifically instructed to get going?
Why would the Presidential staff be any different?
You don’t need to teach your grandmother to suck eggs.
Regards,
Shodan
If I was Mr. Bush, I would have done the following when the first plane hit:
1- Call the head of the FAA and find out what kind of aircraft hit the WTC. If he didn’t know, I’d have him bust a butt trying to find out. If told that there were other missing aircraft, I would then
2- Call the head of the joint chiefs of staff to scramble every fighter in the country
then
3- Call the directors of the FBI and CIA and find out what they know and make sure they cooperate with each other
If I was still reading a children’s book when the second plane hit, I would have said “I’m very sorry, but I have important work that can’t wait and I’ll come back another day.” Then high tail it to the limo and get on the phone with the vice president and leaders of Congress and make a bee line for Air Force One. I would have been in Air Force One with all of its secure communication equipment while Bush was sitting around looking goofy.
If all of the branches of government communicated smoothly and knew exactly what to do, the president could play golf during this. But they don’t. The FBI, CIA, military, FAA, and all the state National Guards don’t play on the same team and all have their own turf battles. That’s why the president needs to quickly put himself in a position to oversee and coordinate their activities.
And where, exactly, would the fighters go? Or would you just have them flying around blindly?
How would they be scrambled, nationwide, if we weren’t at a war footing? It takes a little bit of time to pre-check a plane, fuel it up, and get the pilot from his desk (or civilian job, if he’s a reservist or Guard fighter pilot).
How about getting air traffic control up for these pilots? AWACS coverage? Refueling birds? Fighter planes can’t stay up long without inflight refueling.
I breathlessly await your answer, BobLibDem.
And now for at least the third time: I’m not saying that it wasn’t. But no information was coming to the President of the United States. He didn’t ask a single question.
I would also like to point out that you said this, in reply to DMC’s “Here is what a leader does: demand information, make a determination…”:
You can’t have it both ways. He demanded information, or he didn’t. I’m just saying that he didn’t. You can say that’s ok, but don’t claim that he did, then say it was ok that he didn’t.
Where to send the planes? Sending them out looking for the other hijacked planes would have been a start. Patrolling over populated areas would be another. Of course it takes time to get them up in the air. But reading about a pet goat doesn’t speed the process. Getting air traffic control and fueling the planes are details for the Air Force to worry about. The point is, there are indeed things that Bush could have done in the first moments of the attacks. But he just sat there looking goofy. What could or should Kerry have done? Not a lot as Senator. Perhaps call the governor of his own state to brief him on the situation but other than that, the legislative branch doesn’t have control of the military so not much action was needed on his part. To equate Kerry’s actions on 9/11 with Bush’s is quite silly.
Since this closely followed my post, I guess I should state that I’m not close to being an avowed Bush supporter. Although I used the word figurehead, you completely took it out of context if that’s what you were referring to. There is a big difference between delegation and being a sock puppet. It sounds like most of you feel that Bush should be burying himself in minutia.
It stayed on focus? The OP wasn’t about Bush. The OP was derailed immediately. It seems that it was meant to be derailed. Also, you quoted some of my text and then failed to address it other than to say that you didn’t think it was on topic. It was just as on topic as the rest of this thread.
I can hear that conversation now:
Head of the FAA: “Hello Mr. President. We’ve been waiting for your call. What are we going to do?”
President Bush: “You can go ahead and do your job now.”
Head of the FAA: “Thank God! We had no idea what we were going to do.”
Do you really think people weren’t on top of all of this trying to figure out what was going on? Amazing. During my three years in the military, not once did I wait for the President to hold my hand before doing my job. There is a reason for a chain of command.
When I first read the OP, I just laughed at how rediculous it sounded. Now it seems like maybe it was posted just to highlight how rediculous the Bush bashing is over the 7 minutes. I’m telling all of you, I really am looking for a reason to like Kerry. This isn’t going to be it. None of you are helping his cause with me.
I have posted from the beginning that I am on neither side of the political fence right now. I’ve tried to be objective about the OP’s position and the followup positions on Bush. I believe them both to be silly. All that I’ve seen so far is people taking my posts out of context or quoting them even bothering to address the section quoted. Where is the debate there? I expected better from the people here.
I’d just like to start out by thanking Mr. Moto for starting this Kerry-bashing thread. Like you said, Sweetheart, it really puts things in perspective, doesn’t it?
But, don’t worry. You can always reclaim your credibility by reminding everyone how you still support the Vietnam war.
I recently saw the documentary “OutFoxed.” One of its major points is that conservatives, when they know they know the facts are against them in a debate, regard confusing the issue the same thing as a victory. Some of you may ask, “Who but a pervert would do a thing like that?” to which I respond: exactly.
President Bush, when he was told the country was under attack, had no solid idea what was going on or what he could do about it. Also, he didn’t bother trying to find out. Instead we were told he was “projecting calm.” I saw the video. I’ll have to remember that one for when I’m old and incontinent. “Of course those are urine stains. I’m projecting calm, dammit!”
Some people here have tried to discredit criticism of this president by labelling it “Bush bashing.” Right. I think the best way to test this theory is to reverse it.
Let us suppose that the president in question is named, not Bush, but Clinton. Let us suppose that in the summer before the attacks Clinton had demoted his top intelligence advisor specializing in terrorism. Let us suppose that Janet Reno had cut the budget for investigating terrorists. Let us suppose that Clinton had received a series of ominous memos from the CIA warning him about al Qaeda including one titled “Bin Laden intends to attack United States.” Let us assume that in the face of these memos he decided to go on vacation. Now let us imagine that, after learing of the attacks, he sat on his ass reading a book to a bunch of school children and then continued to schmooze several minutes after that. Let us imagine that he then flew around the country, trying to avoid Washington and justified it on the later disprove excuse that Air Force One was a target. Let us also suppose that some of his best friends were Saudi business partners whom he then gave special permission to fly domestically while other air traffic was shut down. Now let us imagine conservatives telling us that his behavior was appropriate and not making a huge, shitstorm of unprecedented proportions out of this. Now let us imagine ourselves living as immortal gazelles with movie stars as lovers because that’s every bit as likely.
Mr. Moto :wally, Pervert :wally, Starving Artist :wally and Shodan :wally. Thank you so much for the entertainment. You guys truly are a hoot. :wally
No, only the President of the United States of America, Leader of the Free World, Most Powerful Man in the Universe, did that.
He’s the only person in the country, in the world, who showed no curiousity immediately after hearing the news.
All the whining about us even talking about it, and sneering at our concerns, and exaggerations about us wanting him to jump up and act like a freaked out insane marionette or invincible superhero won’t change that fact.
**He had no interest in learning more about the largest terrorist attack in US history.
For up to 20 minutes after hearing about it.**
Thank goodness for photo ops. Historians and future generations will be able to see it with their own eyes.
braintree, Read the Sticky:
Just some responses. They are not in order and I appologize if I mess up and put someone’s words in another’s mouth.
Yes, you did. You missed that Bush had already had a conversation with Dr. Rice about the first plane hitting the tower. Understandably, there was much confusion at that point about what had happened. But are you saying that you think no other information was requested or that no other information gathering services were offered? Do you really think that the very first time anyone heard anything is captured acurately in that movie clip?
What? I have no idea what your point is. Are you saying that Bush did not accurately identify the first plane hitting the tower as an attack, and that somehow makes Kerry the president? I am having trouble following this rant. Perhaps you were limited by the rules of GD. There is a pit thread (of which I am very proud) so if you prefer to use other language to more fully express your opinion, feel free.
No problem. Thank you for the OP. I did find it amusing to see the way the liberals almost peed themselves trying to defend Kerry. I couldn’t get over the image of an audience watching a Saturday Night Live skit and sputtering indignation that their candidate might be lampooned or somehow included in a joke.
Remember, again, you are confusing the actions of an entire day with those of the first 7 minutes. The argument seems to be still that Bush did nothing when he should have been doing “something”.
Frankly because I am a selfish person and did not think my reaction mattered to anyone else.
Leaving aside the stealing of the election, I agree with you completely. This is why I think the issue is so important. Not because the 7 minutes matters, but because it does not. We as Americans simply have to stop building our political debates around such nonsense. I remember hearing lots of Clinton bashing in the 90s (and believing some of it). On reflection, most of it was of the same caliber as this complaint against Bush. I’m not talking about the Conservative Conspiracy, or the Liberal Bias. I’m talking about the tendency of the electorate to squable over gossip rather than real issues.
And never fear, if Kerry wins next election, I will lampoon the flood of republican nonsense which is bound to be pervasive then.
Yes, exactly. That’s why the OP was funny. Thank you. Your reasoned question deserves a reasoned response. Forgive me if someone else already addressed it.
Because they had good information that the fourth plane was coming around again toward Washinton. They knew that the White House was a potential target and that’s where Cheney was. When this happened, Bush was still at the school (although I think about to board his plane) and the Secret Service considered the school safer because they did not consider that it would have been a target of the kind of terrorist attack we were seeing.
So, Cheney was in a much higher profile (politically) building, and they had specific information that it might be the next target of attack.
Bush was in a much lower profile building and no such information was extant.
Also remember to alter you time frames. Cheney was not hustled out until 9:30. This was well after Bush had left the classroom. Bush was on his way to his plane by then (except he wanted to address the nation before he left).
I hope this helps.
Allow me pause and thank you for a very classy post. don’t sweat any little infraction like this. I understand completely. We’ve been posting fast and furiously on this topic and small things like this are bound to happen. Thanks very much for clearing it up. Very classy.
This is a good restatement of the broader issue. The problem with the whole “Bush is a figurehead” argument, is that we are talking about 7 minutes here. Remember, again, Bush had conversations with his National Security people before the classroom visit, during the classroom visit he recieved an update (a shocking one to say the least), and after the classroom visit he imedeiately talked with his National Security people again. Seriously, where in this is he left out of the conversation? Oh, yea, during those 7 minutes.
Look, I can find many things to criticize President Bush about. Really I can. I simply find that petty crap like this gets blown out of proportion. It should be treated as the non issue it is. Fodder for comedians, perhaps, but not really worthy of the angst displayed by so many on these boards.
No, this is not the question. The question is what could the president have done in those 7 minutes to make any difference. You see the difference? Your question assumes omnipotence on the part of anyone charged with making a difference. Mine does not. While I appreciate your assumption that the President can do anything imaginable, I think his evangelical beliefs would rather you did not. 
And to be fair, I should note that the rest of your post was a reasoned presentation of your opinions. Not quite right to take one small part of your reaction and blow it out of proportion eh?
It is not so hard to admit at all. He should have asked what? Except, of course, he already knew (to some degree) what. Does anyone here think that Card was presenting a totally knew and different situation than had already been discussed before Bush went into the classroom? Anyone think that Bush did not (note I did not say could not) understand what Card was refering to?
Well, my number is sort of a comprimise between the extreme figure of 30 minutes and 5 minutes mentioned by posters here and the 9-11 commission report. The report suggests that Bush was informed at 9:05 and the “sometime before” 9:15 he was in a holding room having conversations with National Security people. It suggests that the timing was “between 5 and 7” minutes.
Your link did not work. Can you post another?
All of this was done. I might add, that it was done faster than reporting to the president and waiting for his order could have allowed.
Well done. Your hindsight is better than 20/20. The problem, is that Bush did, in fact #1. At least, he had a conversation with Condoleeza Rice his National Security Advisor. It is reasonable to assume that they talked about getting more information about the first plane. So, in #1, above, you would not have been told that there were other missing aircraft. What would you have done then?
But this is only true for a few minutes while he was in the classroom. He had conversations before, he recieved information during, and he had conversations after. You guys keep making it seem like he had some sort of catatonic lapse of consciousness or something.
Very funny, very funny indeed. One small quibble, it should have been luci.
Not to mention all the missed munitions and the possibility of shooting down an unhijacked plane. These concerns among others were why it took so long to get jets in the air and give them orders to shoot. By then it was far too late for them to have changed anything.
Fair enough that this is your opinion. but please remember that your reading of his expression has as much to do with your mental state as it has to do with his. This is why Mr Moore can make such use of the clip in his movie. By pissing you off about other things, using music and cinematic tricks to affect your mood, he can make that look appear anyway he likes.
Ok, I’ve finally seen the video. Thanks to Squink, BTW, for the link. The statements made in here about Bush’s expression when Card gave him the update are wildly overblown. Bush is at the far end of the focus and his expression cannot be seen at all for several seconds. I have not seen how the footage was used in Moore’s film, but I will in a few weeks. The film clip lasts for 5:03 minutes. It starts just as Card makes his update and continues until the class stops reading, Bush compliments them, and they put their books back under their chairs. During none of it did I note any of the things in Bush’s expression that I have read in this thread. I think you guys are making some of that stuff up.
It might have been informative to see the rest of that footage. Does anyone know if it is availabl anywhere? I’d like to see Bush enter the room and exit the room. This would give a better timeline, as well as perhaps give a better demonstration of his overall demeanor during the entire time in question.
Can you do me a favor and renwew your justification for the 20 minutes? Didn’t you say 30 before? The 9-11 commission report clearly says between 5 and 7 minutes. Can you find a good reason to justify your claim that they are wrong?