# John Kerry\>Jack Ryan? How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895 "2004-06-30T15:42:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/101 "2004-07-01T22:11:37Z")
Well, damn. When I made such sweeping offers, I of course meant “prove that the allegations have some (hell, any) factual basis” as opposed to finding a reputable source that simply mentions them. However, since I said one thing while meaning another, I will cheerfully contribute $20 toward an organization of your choice. In the meantime, the whole enchilada can be yours if you can find a reputable source that demonstrates the truth of those allegations. And you most assuredly can prove that something happened without court documents. Again, damn. And this: > [@](#): > > It’s actually quite hard to find a reputable one in all of the other ones out there. I was using random strings to find one that didn’t include Newsmax. Pretty much says it all. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/102 "2004-07-01T22:43:45Z")
Just want to say that the Chicago Tribune hasn’t been a particularly conservative newspaper since the Colonel died several decades ago and the the Sun-Times lost a good chunk of its liberal pretensions during the period when Rupert Murdoch owned it. They are both pretty centrist these days, maybe tipping slightly to the right. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/103 "2004-07-02T01:18:22Z")
It’s highly doubtful that criminal adultery laws could survive constitutional scrutiny in light of Lawrence vs Texas. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/104 "2004-07-02T02:05:52Z")
GL, I’m not trying to call you out, and you don’t have to contribute to my charity, do it to yours. I doubt sincerely that I could ever find anything to prove he was guilty, similarly, nothing can be shown that can prove he was innocent (from he evidence I have seen). Without a court case, we are at a standoff, because I don’t think, short of some deeper investigation, for there to any undisputable evidence. Most of it is hearsay, including that “nurse” thing I had earlier. I can admit being on the fringe, but I still don’t think Clinton isn’t a womanizer. Actually, Excalibre, both the pot and the AWOL were references to GWB. It seemed important enough to a certain populace to be a reason not to vote for him. Maybe less of a reason than having the R after his name on the ballot, but it’s still a reason. And there are lots of Vietnam vets who don’t consider Kerry a war hero, and many think he falsely received his third purple heart so as to end his tour. Quite heroic. Gadarene, so a live in girlfriend isn’t swinging, that doesn’t mean the voters wouldn’t want to know about it. I doubt sincerely many old school southern voters would like a candidate to have a live in girlfriend that isn’t married to him. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/105 "2004-07-02T02:16:19Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > Without a court case, we are at a standoff No, in order to be at a standoff, you need some tiny shred of evidence that is merely inconclusive. George Bush raped me last night. Whoops, we’re at a standoff! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/106 "2004-07-02T03:08:55Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > GL, I’m not trying to call you out, and you don’t have to contribute to my charity, do it to yours. I doubt sincerely that I could ever find anything to prove he was guilty, similarly, nothing can be shown that can prove he was innocent (from he evidence I have seen). Can you prove you’re not an arsonist? can you prove that Al Roker is not a serial killer? It’s called “presumption of innocence,” dude. > [@](#): > > Without a court case, we are at a standoff, because I don’t think, short of some deeper investigation, for there to any undisputable evidence. Does any accusation against anybody euqte to a “standoff” in your mind until the accused can prove his innocence? I think John Ashcroft is automaton secretly working for his giant ant overlords. If he can’t prove my accusations are false, then I guess we have a standoff. > [@](#): > > Most of it is hearsay, including that “nurse” thing I had earlier. I can admit being on the fringe, but I still don’t think Clinton isn’t a womanizer. I will stipulate that he was a womanizer, but being a womanizer is a far cry from being a _rapist._ > [@](#): > > And there are lots of Vietnam vets who don’t consider Kerry a war hero, There is a conservative political activist group of veterans who are trying to trash Kerry because of his activism _after_ his service. This group is led by a man who John McCain called “one of the most despicable human beings” he’s ever met. The group does not include the officers who gave Kerry outstanding written evaluations during his service. > [@](#): > > and many think he falsely received his third purple heart so as to end his tour. Quite heroic. You seem to be under the impression that a soldier has some kind of say in what medals he is awarded. Since Kerry had the power to award himself Purple Hearts, why didn’t he just go ahead and give himself the Congressional Medal of Honor while he was at it? Did he also award himself his Silver Star? His Bronze Star? Are you actually going to piss on the service record of a decorated combat veteran because he’s not a Republican? Is it your habit to scrutinize the service record of every Vietnam Veteran you meet to make sure he’s really a hero? Me, I just don’t have the balls that big. And not to put too fine a point on it but your own guy is living in a huge glass house. Are you really sure you want to throw stones over this one? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/107 "2004-07-02T03:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Gadarene, so a live in girlfriend isn’t swinging, that doesn’t mean the voters wouldn’t want to know about it. I doubt sincerely many old school southern voters would like a candidate to have a live in girlfriend that isn’t married to him. You’re kidding, right? You’ve gone from “Kerry should open his sealed divorce records” to “voters should know if a candidate has done something that is illegal” to “voters care if a candidate is single but not celibate.” I get the sense - and correct me if I’m wrong here - that you’re pretty much just latching onto anything at this point in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/108 "2004-07-02T04:07:33Z")
> [@qcomdrj](#): > > [Here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/broaddrick022599.htm) is an example of a reputable source saying that allegations had occurred. Bzzzt, wrong answer. You were asked for any evidence at all that the rape you accuse Clinton of had occurred, not that persons other than yourself had alleged it. > [@](#): > > Swallowed what smear campaign?[ This wasn’t an isolated allegation of sexual misconduct. True, there was a pattern of allegations. Know who was doing the alleging, and who was paying them? No? You have a lot to learn, then - try Googling “Scaife” and “Arkansas Project” for starters. Know the difference between an affair and a rape, for that matter? Maybe not - you’re trying to use allegations of affairs to support a charge of rape. Better learn more about the law while you’re at it. > [@](#): > > Isolated events are one thing, there appears to be a pattern here. In this thread alone, you’ve been alleged to be an arsonist and a baby-eater. I think you’re probably a kitten torturer too. Quite a pattern of allegations there. Must mean something, huh? What do you think it means? Think a little further, a lot further actually, about what you’ve said here, and on what basis you’ve said it. Are you going to withdraw your lazy parroting of the smear that Clinton is a rapist or are you not? Do you care about being right and doing the honorable thing when it is clear what that is or do you not? FTR, I haven’t heard the word “swinging” since the Sixties. How isolated an environment did you grow up in, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/109 "2004-07-02T06:07:49Z")
> [@me](#): > > J’accuse! You eat babies for breakfast! > > Whoops, allegations just occurred. Perhaps you don’t really eat babies for breakfast, but I think your silence on the issue so far is pretty damning. And a few hours later, **qcomdrj** tells us why he _still_ believes Bill Clinton is a rapist: > [@qcomdrj](#): > > I doubt sincerely that I could ever find anything to prove he was guilty, similarly, nothing can be shown that can prove he was innocent (from he evidence I have seen). Without a court case, we are at a standoff, because I don’t think, short of some deeper investigation, for there to any undisputable evidence. Breaking news! Doper **qcomdrj** _still_ has yet to respond to the horrifying charges of baby-eating leveled against him. Since there is yet to be a jury trial, his innocence cannot be proven at this point, and I urge all right-minded Americans to defend their babies and rise up to ensure that this baby-eating sumbitch gets the justice he deserves! ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/110 "2004-07-02T13:18:59Z")
I hate to disappoint resident baby-eater qcomdrj, but according to [Salon.com](http://Salon.com): > [@](#): > > [Kerry divorce records already available](http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/07/01/kerry_divorce/index.html) > > By Jennifer Peter > > July 1, 2004 | Boston – When Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry dismissed calls that he make his divorce records public, he apparently didn’t know many of them already are. > > In 1988 Kerry and his first wife, Julia Thorne, were granted a “no-fault” divorce after 18 years of marriage. They cited the generic grounds of “irretrievable breakdown of the marriage,” according to divorce records. > > \*\*The only portion of the records that are sealed involve the couple’s financial information, including salary, assets and debts, which are impounded in all divorce cases, Assistant Norfolk Probate Registrar John Jenney said. \*\* > > Kerry has denounced inquiries about whether his divorce records should be unsealed, a question that has been raised frequently since Illinois Republican candidate Jack Ryan dropped out of the U.S. Senate race last week. His unsealed divorce and child custody records revealed allegations that he tried to pressure his former wife, television actress Jeri Lynn Ryan, to have sex in public at clubs. > > Kerry spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said when Kerry said he wouldn’t make his divorce records public “he was probably thinking about the pieces that are sealed.” > > After nearly six years of separation, Kerry and Thorne filed jointly for a divorce on June 24, 1988. Norfolk Probate Court Judge James Sweeney approved the divorce on July 25, 1988. > > A separation agreement, which included custody and alimony arrangements, was presented to the judge, but it is not included in the public file. It is within the judge’s discretion to allow the attorneys in the case to hold them in their own files, which they did in this case. > > According to Jenney, separation agreements do not contain the grounds for divorce but the nitty-gritty of the financial arrangement between the two parties. > > On June 9, 1995, Kerry and Thorne submitted an application to impound “all pleadings and other papers filed with the Court” in connection with their divorce. Norfolk Probate Court Judge John Cronin denied the request the same day. > > Massachusetts became a no-fault state in 1978, meaning that parties do not have to provide a reason for the divorce unless one side contests it. > > Kerry and Thorne married on May 23, 1970. They had two daughters, Alexandra and Vanessa. Kerry married Teresa Heinz, the widow of Pennsylvania Sen. John Heinz, in May 1995. I don’t see any reason why the financial aspects of the divorce should be unsealed. This just became a non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/111 "2004-07-02T13:43:01Z")
Ah! But _why_ are the financial aspects of the divorce being kept secret? Well, we don’t actually know, now do we? Charges of KGB support for Kerry’s subversive Viet Nam Vets Against America have surfaced (though carefully ignored by liberal media). Do those sealed records provide stunning proof of Kerry’s treachery? Again - we don’t know because the truth is being witheld by an activist judge! A \*Massachussetts \* activist judge, who could be relied upon to withold details of Kerry’s plan to force Eagle Scouts into gay marriages. Really, the evidence just keeps piling up! ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/112 "2004-07-02T13:52:38Z")
**qcomdrj** : You don’t get it, man. I didn’t say charity. I said **organization**. You just blew the one and only chance in hell that I would ever send my money to FoxNews, or WorldNetDaily, or Drudge. You so screwed the pooch on that one. And I sincerely hope that you’ve been reading and learning from everything that has been typed out to you on this thread. Particularly those that point out to you how asinine it is to presume guilt just because some people (who were recompensed, in this instance) level charges. And since you’ve been accused of so many other things, I will take this opportunity to accuse you of being a puppy raper and a serial player of lawn bowling. > [@qcomdrj](#): > > Most of it is hearsay, including that “nurse” thing I had earlier. I can admit being on the fringe, but I still don’t think Clinton isn’t a womanizer. That’s right! It’s hearsay. Do you know why hearsay makes for evidence so lousy that it basically doesn’t count? I think you do. And Clinton is a horndog. So what? Since you think that being perpetually turgid is a terrible thing, surely you can explain why that is. And just so you know: Bush may very well have smoked pot, but it was his verbal gymnastics to avoid conceding to cocaine use that was so amusing. Also, I can go on record and say that his past drug use and his inability to explain his presence (or lack thereof) while he was in the Guard had not one whit to do with why I cast my vote for Gore. Didn’t even cross my mind. Since **Diogenes the Cynic** already pointed out to you the dumbassedness of using the Swift Boat Vets Against Kerry group, I will point out to you that glomming onto the first thing that supports your POV will get your ass handed to you by people who go that extra (mile? yard? foot?. . .yeah, foot) foot and click on the second page of a Google search. And I doubt sincerely that any politician could run for office above Homes Association board member, south, north, wherever, and not have it widely known that he or she was shacking up with someone. And last I checked, Ashcroft was working for his **cicada** overlords. Has there been a change again? Man, I’m glad that I write this stuff in pencil. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/113 "2004-07-02T14:09:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah! But _why_ are the financial aspects of the divorce being kept secret? Well, we don’t actually know, now do we? Charges of KGB support for Kerry’s subversive Viet Nam Vets Against America have surfaced (though carefully ignored by liberal media). Do those sealed records provide stunning proof of Kerry’s treachery? Again - we don’t know because the truth is being witheld by an activist judge! A \*Massachussetts \* activist judge, who could be relied upon to withold details of Kerry’s plan to force Eagle Scouts into gay marriages. > > Really, the evidence just keeps piling up! Just watch. That will be quoted around right-wing blogs, out of context and uncredited, and be quoted back at us at some point. What have you done! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/114 "2004-07-02T14:49:57Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > And last I checked, Ashcroft was working for his **cicada** overlords. Does that mean he’s going away for seventeen years? (fingers crossed) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/115 "2004-07-02T16:23:05Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > And last I checked, Ashcroft was working for his **cicada** overlords. It all comes full circle. Cicadas have sex in public, even making conspicuous noises while doing so. And, maybe it’s “ **17** of 9” rather than “7 of 9”. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/116 "2004-07-02T16:48:00Z")
Well, **dropzone** , I’m certainly doing what I can. And I apologize for my non-geekiness, **DanBlather** , but is that a Star Trek reference? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/117 "2004-07-02T16:57:32Z")
> [@GLWasteful](#): > > Well, **dropzone** , I’m certainly doing what I can. > > And I apologize for my non-geekiness, **DanBlather** , but is that a Star Trek reference? [Yes](http://www.sherylfranklin.com/trekwomen_seven.html). ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/118 "2004-07-02T17:08:58Z")
Well, shit the bed. Not only is it Star Trek, it’s Jeri freakin’ Ryan. My apologies for failing to catch that. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/119 "2004-07-03T03:37:42Z")
Ok, he can’t chose his awards. He can apply for them however. And if he has a friend higher up than him that can recommend him for it, then yes, he can make an impact. Never kick a man who is fighting for a cause so well he can throw someone else’s medals during a protest I guess. Maybe he has friends. I didn’t look up on google the Swiftboats for the extra foot. Don’t have to. See, I have plenty of people in the military currently who tell me these things. If he was such a war hero, why doesn’t he have the veteran vote. And yes, it is a standoff. He’s not going to change, I’m not going to change. Hence, standoff. > [@](#): > > Okay, I will bet you $100, payable in either money order to you, or a contribution to the organization of your choice, that you cannot find a reputable source that says that the allegations happened. Elvis, even Diogenes caught that what was implied and what was written were different. Diogenes, I wasn’t trying to get you to send to drudge, or the foxnews, or anyone. I couldn’t care what you do with your money. Roll it up and snort cocaine with it for all I care. Apparently as a voter I’m not supposed to. As I have said, I am learning from this. I intended to see what the views of this thread were on the fairness of the media. Apparently all of you assume that the media is moderate or conservative leaning, and nobody in the media does anything based on what the rest do, am I right? Also, excessive turgidity can cause many problems, priaprism is quite dangerous. Surely you know this. And babies taste good. They’re tender and supple, like veal. ---
**Author:** ![qcomdrj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/a6a055/32.png) [@qcomdrj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qcomdrj)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895/120 "2004-07-03T03:40:18Z")
Also, Elvis, try finding a contemporary definition of swinging. As in, swinging parties. Swinging chat rooms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-jack-ryan-how/252895.md?page=7)