# John Kerry perpetuates a myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656 "2004-07-30T22:53:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/21 "2004-08-01T00:29:39Z")
As for not knowing what the passengers thought, here’s what they were heard to say: [Panel: United 93 crashed without cockpit struggle](http://www.airdisaster.com/news/0704/23/news.shtml) > [@](#): > > In phone calls from the plane, four passengers said they and others planned to fight the hijackers after learning of the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York earlier that morning. > > **With the words “Let’s roll,” passengers rushed down the airliner’s narrow aisle to try to overwhelm the hijackers.** > > Relying on the cockpit recorder and flight data, the commission said terrorist-pilot Ziad Jarrah violently rocked the jet’s wings and told another hijacker to block the door. With the sounds of fighting outside the cockpit, Jarrah asked, “Is that it? Shall we finish it off?” > > **Another hijacker, who wasn’t identified, replied, "No, not yet. When they all come, we finish it off."** > > Jarrah then began pitching the nose of the plane up and down to throw passengers off balance. > > **Seconds later, a passenger who wasn’t identified yelled, “In the cockpit! If we don’t, we die!” And 16 seconds afterward, another passenger yelled, “Roll it!” Investigators previously have said they believe passengers tried to use a food cart to break the cockpit door.** > > Jarrah said, “Allah is the greatest! Allah is the greatest!”, and he asked his fellow hijacker, “Is that it? I mean, shall we put it down?” > > The other hijacker answered, “Yes, put it in, and pull it down.”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/22 "2004-08-01T00:44:37Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > The republicans don’t have much to say about that side of the man. If only that was true. Have you heard of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? :rolleyes: The thing that annoys me most about that whole thing is that the Republicans I’ve spoken to who attack his service generally say stuff like ‘I’m not taking anything way from what he did’ and then do exactly that. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/23 "2004-08-01T00:59:48Z")
Yes, I’ve read that many times. Carefully. The “If we don’t, we die!” statement is part of what I base my assertions on. Instead of waiting for come what may, they tried to take back, “In the cockpit! If we don’t, we die!”, the plane. I have a question: What’s so bad about those passengers being ordinary people? So bad that we feel the need to fudge the facts to make them seem heroic? I think may we do them and their close ones a disservice by trying to embellish what they actually, and bravely, did. There you have it. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/24 "2004-08-01T01:05:39Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If only that was true. Have you heard of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth? :rolleyes: The thing that annoys me most about that whole thing is that the Republicans I’ve spoken to who attack his service generally say stuff like ‘I’m not taking anything way from what he did’ and then do exactly that. :smack: No, I hadn’t heard of them. I’ll look. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/25 "2004-08-01T07:51:50Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > What’s so bad about those passengers being ordinary people? So bad that we feel the need to fudge the facts to make them seem heroic? I think may we do them and their close ones a disservice by trying to embellish what they actually, and bravely, did. Perhaps there’s some fudging going on (though I don’t know how many people heard the report’s conclusions as compared to the original story), but as you said, they were brave anyway- so maybe it’s not a big difference to some people. Look them up if you want, but hold your nose. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/26 "2004-08-01T11:21:52Z")
Lets not split hairs here, Ok Kerry volunteered under threat of draft. Yes some republicans have called into question Kerry’s war record, but so have vets who served with him. I suspect that his record is so distorted by now that we can’t really determine what happened, and suspect it is being further distorted by both sides as you read this. I don’t see his war ‘hero’ status as a factor for me of how I will vote, I am concerned that he did admit to commiting war crimes however. The passengers of AA-93 prevented the completion of the terrorist mission. The passengers though greater in number were unarmed and untrained, against lightly armed and highly trained hijackers. This is why I consider them heros. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/27 "2004-08-01T15:52:32Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > In Kerry’s acceptance speech, which I thought was a fine speech otherwise, he seemed to perpetuate the myth that the passengers on flight 93 crashed the plane. The commission report firmly established that there were no passengers in the cockpit at the time. Did I misunderstand the speech, or the report. > Peace, > mangeorge No, you are quite right. After realizing that the plane was hijacked the passengers sat passively and read aloud in unison “My Pet Goat”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/28 "2004-08-01T16:27:25Z")
**kacinbird** , give it up. John Kerry volunteered for service even though he had the means to avoid it like Bush and Cheney did. This “under the threat of being drafted” thing is such a festering load of crap it doesn’t even deserve a response. EVERYONE who volunteered for Nam could have theoreticcaly been drafted. Regardless of the GOP campaign to smear his service, (and no, those who served with him do not say otherwise. The right wing political activists who have been paid to smear Kerry in a book were not actual “comrades” in the sense of anybody who knew him or served beside him, they’re just other vets who are mainly pissed that he blew the whistle on US attrocities. The insinuations about whether Kerry actually deserved his Purple Hearts are not only morally disgusting but seem to suffer from a misperception that soldiers have any say in whether they receive medals or not. No Republican veteran would ever have his service slandered in such a way and it just shows the utter hypocrisy and dishonesty of so much of the right in that they think military service is only honorable or “heroic” if it is done by a Republican. (Bob Dole was drafted, btw, did you go around saying he wasn’t a hero?) the FACT is that Kerry risked his life on mutiple occasions to save others. Now quit sliming war heroes. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/29 "2004-08-01T19:40:13Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > No, you are quite right. After realizing that the plane was hijacked the passengers sat passively and read aloud in unison “My Pet Goat”. It would appear that you jumped on in without reading _any_ of the other posts. Either that, or you actually think your “My Pet Goat” statement is true. Either way, you might want to beg the mods to retract your post. Tell 'em you were drunk. A good spot for rolleyes, but I’ll resist. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/30 "2004-08-01T21:25:39Z")
**mangeorge**. Umm, I don’t know how to put this. Are _you_ feeling okay? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/31 "2004-08-01T21:47:25Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > John Kerry volunteered for service even though he had the means to avoid it like Bush and Cheney did. I just wanted to highlight this point. > [@](#): > > Regardless of the GOP campaign to smear his service, (and no, those who served with him do not say otherwise. The right wing political activists who have been paid to smear Kerry in a book were not actual “comrades” in the sense of anybody who knew him or served beside him, they’re just other vets who are mainly pissed that he blew the whistle on US attrocities. [In a nice coincidence, Snopes has a piece on these guys today.](http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp) > [@](#): > > Although the men quoted above are often identified as “John Kerry’s shipmates,” only one of them, Steven Gardner, actually served under Lt. Kerry’s command on a Swift boat. The other men who served under Kerry’s command continue to speak positively of him: > > "In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry’s gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry’s blood is red, not blue. I know, I’ve seen it. > > "If it weren’t for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3 > > — Fred Short > > "I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and chaos . . . Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever have to see, he never lost his cool. > > I had to sit on my hands [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard . . . He went to every man on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they’re doing. I’ve never had an officer do that before or since. That’s the mettle of the man, John Kerry."3 > > — David Alston > > "What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who’s not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people’s kids in harm’s way."2 > > — James Wasser > Many of Kerry’s Vietnam commanders and fellow officers also continue to speak positively of him ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/32 "2004-08-01T22:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > kacinbird, give it up. Ok **Diogenes the Cynic** I’ll give it up, but not for your post, but in the spirt of the OP, I made the distinction initially of I am not including Kerry as a hero to make my point totally clear - the passengers of AAf-93 are heros I was talking about and I did not want any misunderstandings. Again Kerry’s ‘war hero’ status has NO bearing on if I will vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/33 "2004-08-01T23:03:23Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Yes, I’ve read that many times. Carefully. The “If we don’t, we die!” statement is part of what I base my assertions on. Instead of waiting for come what may, they tried to take back, “In the cockpit! If we don’t, we die!”, the plane. > I have a question: > What’s so bad about those passengers being ordinary people? Because a great many ordinary people would NOT storm the cockpit, even if they knew that death was an almost inevitable outcome. I think you’re being too cavalier in dismissing the courage of these individuals. First of al, while they surely knew that death was coming, I have no doubt that many of them were hoping against hope that the highjackers would decide not to crash the plane after all. Those are the types of vain, desperate hopes that I’d expect people to have in a crisis situation. And second, it’s one thing to die in a plane crash. It’s another thing to actively court death by rushing a bunch of thugs who are bound to hack you into little tiny pieces. Now, you speculate that these passengers may have been “optimistic” about their chances of seizing control of the plane. While it’s technically possible that they were so strongly confident of their chances, it’s also implausible in the extreme. No reasonable individual would fail to see that the odds were stacked strongly against them–ESPECIALLY since the terrorists were armed, and they were not. So while they might have had a chance, only an idiot would think that the odds were on their side. Is it guesswork to surmise that the passengers rushed the cockpit, all the while realizing that the odds were against them? Strictly speaking, yes. However, this is a reasonable and logical inference to draw, if we assume that these people had even a modicum of common sense. In contrast, it is utterly unreasonable to postulate that they were indeed strongly confident of their chances, and that they expected to simply seize control of the plane and land it someplace. Such a scenario is so implausible that I’m surprised you even suggest it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/34 "2004-08-01T23:22:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it guesswork to surmise that the passengers rushed the cockpit, all the while realizing that the odds were against them? I’m not sure that this is true, the passengers may have realizes that the terrorists had targets in mind and would hold out till the last to complete their mission. If the passengers could take back control of the aircraft before the target was reached they could have a chance of a safe landing. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/35 "2004-08-02T00:19:56Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > **mangeorge**. Umm, I don’t know how to put this. Are _you_ feeling okay? Sure. What??? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/36 "2004-08-02T00:51:01Z")
But, **JThunder** , these _were_ ordinary people. They were not a hand-picked group placed on the plane to twart the efforts of the terrorists. They were there purely by coincidence. A group of _ordinary_ people, probably part of a larger group of _ordinary_ people, took it upon themselves to try to do something about an **extremely difficult** situation. People do that. I don’t know why you and others resist that so fervently. Last Friday, July 30, an iron worker fell 30ft into the water while working on the Richmond-San Rafael bridge in California. Five of his co-workers immediately jumped (_not_ fell) into the 65ft deep water in a vain effort to help him. _FIVE_ of them, all that were near. Ordinary construction workers. Only real difference is that they had no chance of gain, and their lives were not at risk until they put them there. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/37 "2004-08-02T01:02:51Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > But, **JThunder** , these _were_ ordinary people. They were not a hand-picked group placed on the plane to twart the efforts of the terrorists. They were there purely by coincidence. All the more reason to surmise that they didn’t have a snowball’s chance in Hades of overpowering the terrorists. If anything, your argument shows just how ridiculous it is to surmise that these people were indeed utterly confident of their ability to seize control of the plane. Speaking of which, **kanicbird** , I don’t think your scenario is plausible. Even if we grant that the terrorists were waiting ‘till the last moment to complete their mission, the passengers must surely have known that the odds were in the terrorists’ favor. After all, those plane-nappers were **armed** , and the passengers were not. Additionally, the plane-nappers were presumably trained for combat and mentally prepared for this situation. And finally, there’s that little issue of the pilots being locked away _behind a sturdy cockpit door_. No matter how you look at it, the odds were stacked heavily in the terrorists’ favor, and the passengers must have known this. ---
**Author:** ![Freejooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Freejooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freejooky)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/38 "2004-08-02T01:28:05Z")
I didn’t think that anyone actually _believed_ that whole “Let’s Roll” bullshit, patriotic myth. We shot that plane down; end of story. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/39 "2004-08-02T04:20:42Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > It would appear that you jumped on in without reading _any_ of the other posts. Either that, or you actually think your “My Pet Goat” statement is true. > Either way, you might want to beg the mods to retract your post. Tell 'em you were drunk. A good spot for rolleyes, but I’ll resist. **Mangeorge** : my sarcasm was misdirected at you. I was trying to take a cheap shot at the conservatives. I should have quoted one of those who responded. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/40 "2004-08-02T05:33:18Z")
> [@Freejooky](#): > > I didn’t think that anyone actually _believed_ that whole “Let’s Roll” bullshit, patriotic myth. We shot that plane down; end of story. Well, I’m convinced. You might want to check GD or something. You’ll find that just about nobody here thinks the plane was shot down, even if they didn’t accept the story at face value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656.md?page=3)