# John Kerry perpetuates a myth? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656 "2004-07-30T22:53:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/41 "2004-08-02T14:40:22Z")
I thought they shot the plane down over the studio where they filmed the fake moonlanding, just to destroy as much evidence as possible. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/42 "2004-08-02T22:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Speaking of which, kanicbird, I don’t think your scenario is plausible So I take it you conclude the passengers knew they were ‘trapped rats’ and were going to die either way, so might as well save others in the process. Since they died in the process and saved many lives (potentially), and still did have the possibility of taking back the plane, I must still award them hero status. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/43 "2004-08-02T22:22:46Z")
For the most part, yes, **kanicbird**. (Actually, I think they probably had some vain hope that they could seize control of the plane. Still, if they had a modicum of common sense, they must surely have realized that the deck was stacked heavily against them.) So yes, they were heroes in my book. **mangeorge** insists that these were ordinary people who simply tried to handle a difficult situation. Frankly, I think that’s understating the significance of their actions–but either way, they’re still heroes. Yes, there are other ordinary people who will occasionally rise to perform heroic deeds, but that doesn’t make them any less heroic. Heck, the fact that they were ordinary individuals–apparently without any special training–makes that gesture all the more noble. I salute them. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/44 "2004-08-03T00:04:22Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > All the more reason to surmise that they didn’t have a snowball’s chance in Hades of overpowering the terrorists. If anything, your argument shows just how ridiculous it is to surmise that these people were indeed utterly confident of their ability to seize control of the plane. > Speaking of which, **kanicbird** , I don’t think your scenario is plausible. Even if we grant that the terrorists were waiting ‘till the last moment to complete their mission, the passengers must surely have known that the odds were in the terrorists’ favor. After all, those plane-nappers were **armed** , and the passengers were not. Additionally, the plane-nappers were presumably trained for combat and mentally prepared for this situation. And finally, there’s that little issue of the pilots being locked away _behind a sturdy cockpit door_. No matter how you look at it, the odds were stacked heavily in the terrorists’ favor, and the passengers must have known this. Utterly confident??? If I said that, I most certainly withdraw it. Utterly desperate? That would be a reasonable assumption. You know, at first they were heroes because they beat down the door, wrestled with the terrorists, grabbed the controls and dove the plane into the ground, carefully avoiding populated areas. Now they’re heroes because they banged on the door, making the terrorists nervous. If that had been me and a group of people I know, I’m pretty sure we would have taken the only (slim) chance open to us and tried to save our (and the other passengers) asses. I’d have been pissing my pants, but I’d have _tried_. Have any of you folks ever been in any real danger? ---
**Author:** ![observer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/47e85d/32.png) [@observer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/observer)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/45 "2004-08-03T06:44:24Z")
Something I wondered about when I read the report’s conclusions: On Flight 93, the passengers tried very hard to get into the cockpit, apparently even smashing a drink cart into the door, and they didn’t succeed. The door remained locked, and the hijacker remained in control. On the other 911 planes, if the pilots (the REAL pilots) had bolted their doors against the hijackers and headed for the nearest airport, instead of apparently entering the passenger cabin to see what the trouble was, could those planes have been saved? I suspect that if the hijackers had started trying to smash through locked cockpit doors on those planes, those passengers might have tried to resist too. I know that today cockpit doors are supposed to be reinforced and the pilots are supposed to lock themselves inside no matter what, but even by pre-911 standards it doesn’t sound like the cockpit was that easy to get into. Did the hijackers rely on the idea that they could simply lure the pilots out of the cockpit, rather than force their way in? (I realize that there is no way to know this as a matter of fact, but someone who knows something about aircraft doors and airline procedures might be able to speculate thoughtfully.) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/46 "2004-08-03T07:03:21Z")
Thing is, pre-9/11, standard procedure for dealing with hijackers was to cooperate, for the most part. The goal was always to prevent the hostages from being killed. “Open the door or we’ll start killing passengers” might not work today, but it would have worked every time back then. Utter platitudes, get the plane on the ground, and let expert negotiators talk the hijackers into giving up, that’s what aircrews were supposed to do. And not without cause. Can you imagine the lawsuits if some pilot had tried to play cowboy during some hijacking and half the passengers wound up dead? The tactic of using airliners as missiles neatly exploited the standard responses to hijackings that had been developed over the decades. And now its obsolete. In fact, it was obsolete 'round about when the passengers on Flight 93 heard about it on their cell phones and decided that if they were going to die, may as well die trying. An odd side effect of the 9/11 attacks is that plain vanilla hijackings are now likely doomed to messy failure. It’s hard to cow people who believe they’re going to die with threats to their life, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/47 "2004-08-03T07:05:57Z")
Did the hijackers say that they had a bomb? I thought I heard that - and if so, I’m sure it would’ve gained the attention of the pilots, and probably got the out of the cockpit and doing whatever was demanded of them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2004, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/48 "2004-08-04T10:41:37Z")
> [@observer](#): > > . I know that today cockpit doors are supposed to be reinforced and the pilots are supposed to lock themselves inside no matter what, but even by pre-911 standards it doesn’t sound like the cockpit was that easy to get into. Pre-9/11, it was not at all unusual for the cockpit door to remain unlocked. No need to force entry - just go up to the door and open it. So yeah, potentially it was VERY easy to enter the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/49 "2004-08-06T02:29:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I am concerned that he did admit to commiting war crimes however. I think you may be thinking of Senator **Bob Kerrey** , of Nebraska ([Link from the US Naval Academy](http://www.usna.edu/CharacterDevelopment/seminars/Readings/Topics_01_02/truth-case5.html), about 1/3 of the way scrolled down) rather than Senator **John Kerry** , of Massachusetts. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/50 "2004-08-06T23:15:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Lets not split hairs here, Ok Kerry volunteered under threat of draft. Yes some republicans have called into question Kerry’s war record, but so have vets who served with him. I suspect that his record is so distorted by now that we can’t really determine what happened, and suspect it is being further distorted by both sides as you read this. I don’t see his war ‘hero’ status as a factor for me of how I will vote, **I am concerned that he did admit to commiting war crimes however.** WHAT? Cite??? Are you confusing **Bob Kerrey** with **John Kerry**? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/51 "2004-08-07T00:17:41Z")
John McCain has climbed a couple points in my book. I’m sure he really cares. 😉 The OP; I really didn’t expect that so many would consider the passengers to be heros. Maybe I do hold the bar a little too high. When I think hero, I think of exceptional courage, above what the average (ordinary) person would do. If you describe a hero as someone who does something scary, an act that doesn’t _intentionally increase_ their peril, then what’s left to say of those who do “intercept the bullet”, as it were? Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/52 "2004-08-07T00:25:18Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > I really didn’t expect that so many would consider the passengers to be heros. Maybe I do hold the bar a little too high. When I think hero, I think of exceptional courage, above what the average (ordinary) person would do. If you describe a hero as someone who does something scary, an act that doesn’t _intentionally increase_ their peril, then what’s left to say of those who do “intercept the bullet”, as it were? Martyr? ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/53 "2004-08-07T00:36:43Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Martyr? No, **Richiam** , a martyr has to die. A hero doesn’t. And heros don’t get virgins. So that won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/54 "2004-08-07T00:43:32Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > No, **Richiam** , a martyr has to die. A hero doesn’t. And heros don’t get virgins. > So that won’t work. Well, the passengers on Flight 93 **did** die. Not that I’m calling them, specifically, martyrs; just answering your question. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/55 "2004-08-07T01:05:44Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Well, the passengers on Flight 93 **did** die. Not that I’m calling them, specifically, martyrs; just answering your question. Oh yes, they died alright. But we don’t _know_ that they died in the hope of saving others. They could (and should) have been trying to save themselves. They knew that backing off wouldn’t save their skins. They knew they risked nothing, not really. That was made clear by what they were told on the phones. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/56 "2004-08-07T01:40:58Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Oh yes, they died alright. But we don’t _know_ that they died in the hope of saving others. They could (and should) have been trying to save themselves. They knew that backing off wouldn’t save their skins. They knew they risked nothing, not really. That was made clear by what they were told on the phones. Fair enough. But you asked, “What do we call **those** who “intercept the bullet”?” not “What do we call the passengers on Flight 93?” I’d still answer “martyrs” to the first question, whether or not it’s interchangeable with the second. ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/57 "2004-08-07T01:43:45Z")
Y’know all this strikes me as completely silly and irrelevant. Maybe they decided that they had nothing to lose. Maybe they came to the conclusion that this was the only slim chance they had at survival. Maybe they thought it would be better for the plane to crash than allow the hijackers to complete their mission. Maybe… maybe… maybe. We can’t know what went through each individual’s head as they struggled forward towards the cockpit in an attempt to take the controls of the plane. We can’t know what actually went through the minds of so many people we consider heros. We can only know what they did based on those thoughts. In my opinion, as these things can only ever be, a hero is simply a brave ordinary person whose actions caused something great to happen. Be it desperation, blind adrenaline rush, or more selfless motivations, some sort of courage is involved when facing your own death. Refusing to be a passive statistic and instead rushing headlong into armed, presumably trained, terrorists? It’s easy to sit here in front of our computers and say “Well duh! Did they have any other real choice?” It’s easy to be rational, to analyze the options when you’re calmly sipping the beverage of your choice in your own home in a neighborhood you know, but in a panic situation I myself don’t tend to act totally rational. I tend to react. These _ordinary people_ reacted in a way that possibly saved hundreds, possibly even thousands, of other lives, as well as the more abstract damage to our nation’s infrastructure. It’s not about jingoism or the American spirit or patriotic fervor. Any group of ordinary people from any country around the world put into the same situation might’ve done the same thing… or they might have sat there as simple victims. These group of people, “ordinary” stock from “ordinary” backgrounds, attempted to do something extraordinary in an effort to save lives. That’s enough for me. I can call that heroism and not lose any sleep at night about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/58 "2004-08-07T02:23:10Z")
I think what the passengers did was brave, and can stand on it’s own, without any puffery from us. I also think that what some politicians and others did before the facts were even known, to suit their own goals, was disingenuous at best. “Ordinary” and “hero” are mutually exclusive terms. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/59 "2004-08-07T02:24:51Z")
No, they are not. Ordinary people can indeed be heroes. You keep getting hung up on the word “ordinary,” as though this somehow nullified their heroic nature. It does not, and I am stunned that you keep insisting that these terms are mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656/60 "2004-08-07T02:37:50Z")
A heroic act is certainly not an ordinary act. That’s the whole point of the word itself, that an extraordinary thing has occured. I’m “hung up” on ordinary because I’m confident that I, and many others I know, would surely have done the same as the passengers. I’m _sure_ of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-kerry-perpetuates-a-myth/257656.md?page=4)