# John Lennon as Genius... Stop the B.S.! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 13, 2001, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857 "2001-01-13T15:03:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/21 "2001-01-14T04:07:57Z")
Talking about beating a dead horse–BUT–let me fine tune one point. I wasn’t suggesting that pacifism isn’t admirable, merely that it is/was not uncommon, certainly not among the young adults and teens in 60s-70s America. (I believe that correction sets a record for double, triple, and quadruple negatives.) That said, have you ever noticed how Madonna can look really foxy in one photo–and then like Frankenstein’s monster in the next? What gives–airbrush artists on strike? ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/22 "2001-01-14T04:09:09Z")
Talk about beating a dead horse–BUT–let me fine tune one point. I wasn’t suggesting that pacifism isn’t admirable, merely that it is/was not uncommon, certainly not among the young adults and teens in 60s-70s America. (I believe that correction sets a record for double, triple, and quadruple negatives.) That said, have you ever noticed how Madonna can look really foxy in one photo–and then like Frankenstein’s monster in the next? What gives–airbrush artists on strike? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/23 "2001-01-14T05:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ianzin \* > \*\*And finally… I side with those who find something rather incongruous about a man with his wealth singing “Imagine there’s no possessions…”, and being credited with some kind of saintly evangelical quality. A very good pop song, written by a very rich man. \*\* If you’re into incongruity, consider the song ‘Revolution’, wherein our fabulously wealthy heroes advise radicals on how not to change the System. But at least ‘Revolution’ was a good song. ‘Imagine’ has got to be the smuggest, most self-indulgent, mimsyish piece of trash ever recorded. Despite the wrong turn down the Yoko trail, I still think John ranks as a huge force in pop music. Almost as good as Pete Townshend ;). ---
**Author:** ![one\_last\_glass\_dear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e19b73/32.png) [@one\_last\_glass\_dear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/one_last_glass_dear)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/24 "2001-01-14T06:54:12Z")
Jackmanii said: “Despite the wrong turn down the Yoko trail, I still think John ranks as a huge force in pop music. Almost as good as Pete Townshend.” And I’ll take Keith Moon over Yoko any day. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/25 "2001-01-14T09:15:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\* > > Despite the wrong turn down the Yoko trail, I still think John ranks as a huge force in pop music. Almost as good as Pete Townshend ;). \*\* I’m a fan of the (early) Who too, but surely you’re not making this claim based on _All the Best Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes_ or _White City_or even _It’s Hard_ or _Face Dances_, right? Talk about smug and self-indulgent (and pretentious). ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/26 "2001-01-14T19:33:20Z")
Since we’re on the topic, here’s something I’ve always wondered about: How good of a drummer was Ringo? I remember reading that Paul thought Ringo was rather mediocre (at best) and that Paul played the drums in a couple of White Album songs, rather than Ringo. True or not? If he was a mediocre drummer like, um, why didn’t he practice and get better? I’m guessing he wasn’t exactly Max Roach or Buddy Rich. As for Lennon, yes he was very talented. No doubt about it. (Nice conciliatory ending, eh?) ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/27 "2001-01-14T19:44:18Z")
Well, Ringo wasn’t technically great, but he had a pretty good feel for what sounded right in a particular song (even if it was a little unconventional [euphemism for unschooled]). And Paul did play drums on some White Album songs, but then he played all the other instruments too, so I don’t think he was trying to single out Ringo - more likely it was an ego/power thing on his part. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/28 "2001-01-14T21:57:54Z")
Um, I believe Ringo had left the band for a sabbatical during the White Album. ---
**Author:** ![L714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dec6dc/32.png) [@L714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/L714)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/29 "2001-01-14T23:17:41Z")
Never cared for his music or “artwork” and and he wasn’t that great a human. He allowed Yoko Ono to stand outside the home where he lived with his first wife and child even though it made Cynthia very uncomfortable. Yoko amused him and he simply dismissed her as “a strange bird.” Did he ever consider she was there to harm them? I thought it was ironic he was killed by someone in the street. His relationship with Ono was a faithful one either and I recall when his first son had to fight her to have one of his fathers guitars. Sheez what a crew. ---
**Author:** ![L714](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dec6dc/32.png) [@L714](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/L714)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/30 "2001-01-14T23:22:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by L714 \* > \*\* > His relationship with Ono was a faithful one either \*\* Sorry, should read: “wasn’t a faithful …” ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/31 "2001-01-14T23:39:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* > \*\*Since we’re on the topic, here’s something I’ve always wondered about: How good of a drummer was Ringo? I remember reading that Paul thought Ringo was rather mediocre (at best) and that Paul played the drums in a couple of White Album songs, rather than Ringo. True or not? If he was a mediocre drummer like, um, why didn’t he practice and get better? I’m guessing he wasn’t exactly Max Roach or Buddy Rich. > \*\* Prior to joining the Beatles, Ringo was widely considered the best, most professional drummer within the fast-growing circle of Liverpool bands. He was drumming for Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, who were booked regularly at one of the holiday camps. Part of the reason the band stuck with Pete Best so long was that his mother owned the coffee shop where they rehearsed and often played. When it came time to sign with Parlophone, and George Martin expressed concern over Best’s ability, the Beatles knew precisely who they wanted to replace him: Ringo Starr. Paul did in fact play on a couple of “White Album” songs; as Guinastasia said, Ringo had at the time taken a break from the band. Paul also played lead guitar on “Taxman,” “Another Girl” and a few other songs, but I doubt that reflects his thoughts on George’s talents (hell, “Taxman” was George’s song!). He’s simply the kind of guy who, if he thinks he can do it better, or if he’s “in the moment” and wants to get it done, does it himself. If Ringo wasn’t any good, Lennon, Harrison and McCartney would not have used him on several of their solo recordings when they could have used anyone they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Nacho4Sara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Nacho4Sara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nacho4Sara)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/32 "2001-01-15T00:54:34Z")
> [@](#): > > If Ringo wasn’t any good, Lennon, Harrison and McCartney would not have used him on several of their solo recordings when they could have used anyone they wanted. One only has to listen to Ringo’s _amazing_ drum work in “Rain” to see his talent; even he said many times that “Rain” was his best drumming ever, and it shows. Also, listen to his drum solo during “The End,” the second to last song in the Long Medley on _Abbey Road_. John, Paul, and George to three sets of revolving guitar solos (each completely defines their personal style in a way that leaves me awed), then Ringo hits it home with his solo. It’s spectacular and breathtaking. While you’re listening, notice John’s almost heavy-metal-esque solo, then Paul’s bass, which is just shiny and bouncy and beautiful - I don’t know how else to describe it. Finally, George’s solo is very bluesy, very Clapton-y. I love this song because it captures the different styles and directions they were going in, but also underlines how well their very seperate talents meshed. I’m fine with people not liking the Beatles, and I won’t argue either way whether John Lennon deserves to be canonized, but there is no doubt in my mind that their musical skills are beyond question. ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/33 "2001-01-15T02:20:27Z")
but genius is an overused word when if comes to pop/rock artists, including Lennon. And since the thread mentioned Ringo. I heard the Paul/Ringo drum story this way. McCarney went into the studio after a song (forgot which one) was recorded and redid Ringo’s drum tracks. Ringo found out, stormed off in a huff, but came back in a few days to find his drum kit covered in roses, with an appology from McCartney. And he played on “Yer Blues” for sure. So it wasn’t a total sabatical from the “White Album”. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/34 "2001-01-15T02:31:00Z")
Not to drag out the Ringo debate too much, but according to _Beatlesongs_ by William J. Dowlding, Ringo played drums on 20 _White Album_ tracks and sang lead on one more that contained no drums (“Good Night”). So if he was on sabbatical it was for a relatively short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/35 "2001-01-15T02:51:41Z")
I wanted to thank **Veb** for a perfect assessment of Madonna. I give her credit for one thing and one thing only. She out-hyped the hypesters of Hollyweird. Past that she is entirely forgettable. **Jack** and **bird** have gotten closest to the mark about JL. I was never too fond of him although I thought his “edgy” qualities were the perfect foil to the illimitable treacle of McCartney. As a team, they did indeed change the landscape of modern music. Their nearly universal appeal to all age groups is a hallmark of this fact. I believe that one of the defining aspects of the Beatles is their use of nearly all musical styles: Rock - She’s So Heavy Rock & Roll - Why Don’t We Do It In the Road? Classical - The Piggies (chamber quartet) Pop - Help Vaudeville - When I’m Sixty-four Acid Rock - A Day In the Life Of… We’ll discuss their use of sitar and other non-musical sounds that also contributed to a complete shift in how and what type of music was recorded. Few other groups besides Bonzo Dog Band were able to play so many styles and play them well. This is what distinguishes the Beatles from the current crop of musical one trick ponies, regardless of how many platinum albums they’ve got. Consider how difficult it was to go gold or platinum back when not as many people had home stereo systems. Few other artists have been covered as many times as the Beatles. Their individual talents may not have been peaks of human achievement but ènsemble they attained a serindipity found in few other bands. As an aside, I’m sure that more than a few people at these boards are pretty d@mn glad that Harrison has backed the Monty Python crew so consistently. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2001, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857/36 "2001-01-15T02:53:46Z")
PS: Make that “so many” and not “nearly all” musical styles… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-lennon-as-genius-stop-the-b-s/49857.md?page=1)