John Lott's sock puppet.

** well, since several of us interpreted your remarks as having called us liars, you should be able to see why we ‘bristled’.

However, since you still seem to see yourself as the victim (the one maligned, because we had the audacity to suggest that you were calling others liars), you still seem to blame us for tone.

** I would say that my comments to you are not a ‘personal attack’. Several of us interpreted your remarks as accusing us of dishonesty. Responding to a serious charge such as that is not a ‘personal attack’, it’s holding the poster accountable for their words.

Now, should we interpret your post here as an ‘oops, sorry, I shouldn’t have said that, no I don’t think the posters here are dishonest when they say over and over that it’s the type of comments that Lott posted that were in question, not the fact that he’s posting under a different name’ ???

like I said, you launched the first volley of personal attacks by posting comments suggesting that “posters in this thread” were being dishonest.

I’m amazed you think this is a serious attempt to boost his reputation. “Lott was a great professor who was evenhanded in class!” Well, even if true, BFD. This is a little like my having a sock exclaim “Dewey is the nicest guy I have ever met” when, in fact, I am an asshole. True? Untrue? Who really gives a shit? The only people who should be upset by that claim are Yale students who sign up for Lott’s class on that recommendation.

Frankly, I’d be more concerned with “Mary” citing to Lott’s work as dispositive on certain issues. That seems to me to be “bolstering” in a way that really does go to Lott’s reputation as a scholar. But you’re OK with that. Go figger.

(And, FTR, I find there to be a fantastical difference between lawyers and scholars. When we screw up, people get hurt. Whatever abstract harm is inflicted by scholars acting improperly – even by guys like Michael Bellesiles who make up sources – pales in comparison to some poor plaintiff who won’t get her medical bills paid or a party to a contract getting saddled with overly-onerous indemnity provisions. What we do has real-world consequences, and false claims about our capabilities potentially hurts flesh and blood people.)**

Having skimmed some of those posts, I recognize some of the names in the threads. Many of then are notorious poo-flingers. Serious, Usenet is not.

Dewey, you’re not Lott, are you?

:smiley:

Lott was not defending his own work through a sheild of anonymity. He was bolstering his public image through phony 3rd-party praise.

Nor did I suggest they were. I made reference to another poster’s words (“an idiot and/or liar”), and they were a personal attack, as were the words of another poster I did not cite (“shit-for-brains”). None of that came from you.**

**And again, while I see how my comments could be read that way, that was not my intent. My point was just that the stated standard (no bolstering by a sock) would apply as equally to citations to Lott’s work as authoritative as it would to claims that Lott’s a great guy, smart prof, whatever. And no, I don’t think I owe anyone an apology; at worst, I did not state my view clearly and it was misunderstood. I have since clarified my remarks. All should be OK.

Again, I have no problem with your request that I back my statement up. I took that opportunity to clarify my remarks. I did bristle a bit, however, at the suggestion that I was accusing people of lying; thus, I was probably shorter with you than I should have been. Apologies for that.

But I am a little disappointed that you guys didn’t extend me the benefit of the doubt – your response was “you’re calling us liars,” not “it sounds like you’re saying we’re liars; is that really what you mean?” I would’ve hoped that my reputation around here would have been good enough to warrant that courtesy.

Baloney. First of all, nobody should need access to Lott’s “inner thoughts” to join the debate about him and his conclusions. Second, if Lott’s sock needed access to a wider range of Lott’s views on the issues, Lott could publish such an inventory on a personal Web site, that “Mary” could refer to, to bolster her case, as I previously said.

The two are hardly equivalent. Just last night, for instance, I had extremely critical things to say about a Pit OP. But I pointed out one solid bit of reasoning amidst what I considered to be drek. Saying “This argument of yours is valid” was definitely a huge jump from “you’re a good debater,” and I would not have dreamed of extrapolating from the former to the latter.

Same thing with Lott. “His research has conclusively answered this particular argument” is a limited, relatively fact-based claim; posters on both sides can look at the argument, Lott’s research, and government crime statistics, and at least establish in short order whether the claim is right, wrong, or debatable. And “He is a really good scholar,” of course, is the sort of generality that’s worthless, so let’s roll the tape of what “Mary Rosh” actually claimed:

Let’s see:

  1. “Mary” thought Lott was the best professor she ever had.
  2. From his class presentations, you wouldn’t know he was a right-wing ideologue.
  3. Lott was such a great professor that there were a group of grad students who tried to take every class he taught.
  4. Lott did his best to deflect his would-be disciples from such a narrow focus, encouraging them to get exposed to a wider set of views.

Consider how this would look if Lott had said these things about himself:

  1. “Students told me I was the best professer they ever had.”
  2. “From my class presentations, no one would know that I favored right-wing viewpoints.”
  3. “I had a bunch of grad students who were such big fans of mine, they tried to take every course I offered.”
  4. “But I told them that they needed to be exposed to the work of other professors, too.”

The chorus of laughter, and the following barrage of ridicule, shows exactly why it’s illegitimate for his sock to say these things on his behalf: what credibility they have is completely derived from someone else saying them. We are not, as a rule, good objective judges of ourselves, and so effusive self-adulation will gain us nothing but ridicule.

So instead, he puts these very specific adulatory claims - two claims about his vaunted objectivity as a professor, and two claims about his devoted following of grad students - in his sock’s mouth.

That’s not so. I’ve cited Lott’s figures - here on this board - to call his work into question. :smiley:

There’s an important distinction, FWIW, between Lott’s research, and Lott’s conclusions. One can argue, as any Lott supporter could, that his research supports his conclusions. There may be a limited endorsement there - but it’s an ‘endorsement’ in the same sense that one scientist replicating the results of another is ‘endorsing’ the first scientist’s work. In both cases, it isn’t so much endorsement as demonstration that it is so, with the pieces out there for all to examine.

But this is not what “Mary” is doing when she oozes about how evenhanded Lott was as a grad school prof, or how the grad students were ready to leave all else behind, and follow him. The evidence isn’t in any argument, which we can all judge for ourselves; the evidence is ‘her’ personal testimony. Which is a fraud.

One reason is that everyone can decide for themselves about whether Lott’s work is dispositive on an issue, by going to the work and reaching their own conclusions. “Mary Rosh” is in no better position to do this than the legions of other Lott fans and critics.

But Lott had a relative handful of grad students, so there are a limited number of people who can make or gainsay “Mary’s” claims, most of whom will not have visited the message boards, Usenet fora, etc. where these debates took place. “She” is making claims about his evenhandedness that likely no one in a given debate can refute. And they’re claims that he could not make publicly for himself, and as I’ve already argued, has no business making for himself through a sock.

I hope I’ve conveyed here why I deeply disagree.

In hindsight, I apologize for the name calling insults, they certainly did not advance my point.

I do feel that comparing my use of a psedonym with what John Lott did to be ridiculous. You may defend what he actually did…but his actions are nowhere close to anything I have done on this or any other board. You accused me of dishonesty with the pot-kettle-black remark. I’m still a bit confused (as is wring, I think) to what extent you have apologized for/modified/retracted that remark.

My original problem with Lott’s intellectual dishonesty (and why it’s different that a mere use of a pseudonym) has been better addressed by minty and Rufus, so I won’t add to that.

Both sides in the gun debate are pretty sure that whether to encourage or discourage private gun ownership is a matter of real-world consequences. Death tolls and all that. It’s not like this guy is writing literary criticism of Chaucer or anything like that–the “More Guns Less Crime” proposition is pretty serious stuff.

Dewey, he was giving himself an intelectual blowjob to make his beliefs appear more favourable.

Now, there’s an image I didn’t need… where’s the vomiting smiley when you need it?

does every thread absolutely need a Clinton reference???

( :wink: )

Now there’s something we can all agree on. :slight_smile:

What Lott did is exactly the same as the movie studio that used a fake critic in their ads. He is inventing someone to agree with him. That is dishonest. Duh.

Look, part of my position is a gut-level loathing of Usenet political discussion, a general belief that it is quite possibly the single most inconsequential forum in the universe, a view that it is populated with loonies and crackpots, and a sense that anyone who believes anything anyone says about themselves in that arena is begging to be made a fool. If Lott wants to stroke his massive ego on Usenet, well, that may be silly or even pathetic, but it isn’t this awful thing you guys seem to be making it into.

I still don’t think it’s a big friggin’ deal. In the same way, I suppose, that some people think that lying under oath is no biggie as long as the questions relate to one’s sexual past (just to cumulate the Clinton references :slight_smile: ). Personally, I find the latter view to be staggering in its moral bankrutpcy, but I’ve heard plenty of rational people express it. My gut says dicking around on Usenet in this fashion isn’t worth making a stink over. YMMV.

And that is the absolutely, positively, definitely, undeniably last word I will utter on the topic. Unless I change my mind later.