# John Mace Says: "Americans are too stupid to educate themselves..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703 "2010-11-15T04:02:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/61 "2010-11-15T22:58:26Z")
Furthermore, this whole little discussion shows how stupid you are when it comes to economics. OMG, look what’s happening right now\*… that trend must continue forever, and we’re doomed!! Markets are all about feedback. Supply and demand, in constant flux, seeking equilibrium. The dot com bust created an over-supply of CS types. People reacted by not enrolling in CS programs as much as they had in the past. Of course, if you project that out into the future, it’s going to go to zero. But the real world works differently. Just as people shy away from those degrees, demand picks up again. And how do people react? By favoring CS degrees more than they had in previous years. \*But you’re so stupid you even confuse 3 years ago with “right now” ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/62 "2010-11-15T23:30:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re so stupid, you can’t ever read. The cite says up 8% for 1 year, not up 8% since 2007. You brain dead retard, I said 8% since 2007 because they didn’t have stats beyond 2007-2008. > [@](#): > > Now, let’s see what you claimed: > > “Americans are in fact STAMPEDING AWAY from IT and have been doing so for the last 7 or so years”. > > “every source in the universe is saying Americans are STAMPEDING away from IT”. > > Every source in the universe, huh? Stampeding away, huh? > > You’re an idiot. A one year jump is not a net increase over the last 7 years. Do your math Einstein. Or first, grow a brain. Ever wonder why opposition to your dumbfuck economic theories is GROWING and not SHRINKING? It’s because you make the most flaming retarded case possible and your arguments are what you expect to hear out of pre-schoolers. You just keep going fucktard. People like me use people like you for recruitment. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/63 "2010-11-15T23:44:05Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > A one year jump is not a net increase over the last 7 years. Do your math Einstein. Or first, grow a brain. He never claimed that it was a net increase over the past 7 years. He simply pointed out that, while there _was_ a large drop in CS degrees, enrollments have recently (the last few years) started to rise again. Also, you are being disingenuous about your own claims. You didn’t simply claim that there had been a net drop over the past seven years. You said, specifically: > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Since it is fairly clear to those with a clue that Americans **are** in fact STAMPEDING AWAY from IT **and** have been doing so for the last 7 or so years, to the point that we’ve seen a 45% drop in CS degrees (for instance) between 2003 and 2007… Bolding mine. You made two claims: 1. That Americans _ **are** _ [i.e., right now] STAMPEDING AWAY from IT 2. That Americans have been STAMPEDING AWAY from IT for the past 7 years or so. Aggregate figures for the seven-year period might support claim #2, but claim #1 is a claim about the present. Your use of the present tense (“are”) suggests that this stampede away from IT is still continuing. But the figures seem to suggest that the stampede has stopped, and that enrollments are increasing again. There may have been a net drop over the past 7 years, but the current situation seems to be one of increasing numbers, and the evidence suggests that this increase has been going on for about 3 years now. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/64 "2010-11-15T23:49:48Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You brain dead retard, I said 8% since 2007 because they didn’t have stats beyond 2007-2008. Sorry, but you’re the brain-dead retard here. It might be true that they did not have stats beyond 2007-2008, but this doesn’t mean that it’s honest to take the 2007-2008 stats and suggest, in 2010, that those figures apply to the whole period since 2007. Because that is what you did. Here’s a hypothetical that might be simple enough for your feeble brain to cope with. Say i have figures showing that Ford sold 1,000,000 cars in 2007-2008. And say, also, that these are the last figures that i have. I don’t know how many cars Ford sold in 2009 or 2010. Is it then reasonable for me to claim, at the end of 2010, that Ford has sold only 1,000,000 cars since 2007? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/65 "2010-11-16T00:03:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Furthermore, this whole little discussion shows how stupid you are when it comes to economics. You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand that job growth hasn’t been keeping up with population growth. You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand that wages haven’t been keeping up with inflation. You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand the pattern of back-to-back jobless recoveries that are now hitting like run-on sentences to the point that we’re looking at the possibility of a double-dip to boot. You have the US Chamber of Commerce saying that a MINIMUM of 2 million US jobs were lost to offshoring but in John Maceville they don’t do math - they don’t look at what 2 million jobs means against our current unemployment levels. (Translation: America’s unemployed sure as hell could use those 2 MILLION jobs.) Most of all? You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand that the middle class is disappearing by absolutely ANYONE’s standards. Then as if you don’t think you can top your stupidity, you come back and say markets are all about feedback - no, they’re primarily about PEOPLE. There are lives involved amidst all that “feedback” and your inability to understand that is at the core of why you’re finding it harder and harder to sell these so-called “benefits” of offshoring. You keep preaching that these trends are either not happening or that they’ll reverse, despite there being no sign of any such reversal coming anywhere in the foreseeable future. And you know what’s even funnier? Your OWN IT cite says we’re STILL seeing a 10% drop in CS degrees being handed out. Which means 10% more people are giving up in mid-stream than were the year before. 10% more people STAMPEDING away once they realize what the real job market is like. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/66 "2010-11-16T00:38:42Z")
Gods…yet another thread in which the jack-ass-a-lope shows that, indeed, he can’t read or comprehend even the simplest things. Le lapin a cornes fou is one of the biggest current trolls on this board, as you can watch as he continues to keep his earlier pit thread humming along by tossing out various outrageous bullshit in a vain effort to lure some 'dopers back in to ‘discuss’ stuff with him. It’s funny, but I’m not even sure this idiot is a lefty…I think he’s playing a lefty trolling righty types, while being simply an idiot who is trolling everyone. Some of the things he said in his idiotic trade thread were twitching my ‘isolationist righty type’ funny bone. Luckily, I’m one of the growing list of 'dopers that are on his ignore list, so he’ll never know that the game is up. I think this idiot will have a very small half life here on the 'dope…if the Mods aren’t already talking about him behind closed doors I’ll be shocked. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/67 "2010-11-16T00:45:03Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Gods…yet another thread in which the jack-ass-a-lope shows that, indeed, he can’t read or comprehend even the simplest things. Le lapin a cornes fou is one of the biggest current trolls on this board, as you can watch as he continues to keep his earlier pit thread humming along by tossing out various outrageous bullshit in a vain effort to lure some 'dopers back in to ‘discuss’ stuff with him. It’s a big board with a lot of people on it. I have to admit I’d never noticed either Le Jacquelope or John Mace before now. But Le Jacquelope has not made a good first impression in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/68 "2010-11-16T00:50:10Z")
You seriously never noticed John Mace before?? Le Jac has been trolling the board for about a month now…that’s the first I noticed him. I think it’s pretty obvious what John was saying there, and unless the lapin a cornes is as brain dead as gonzomax, this is obvious just another trolling thread, though gods knows why he would involve the mild mannered Mace in it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/69 "2010-11-16T00:52:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You seriously never noticed John Mace before?? That surprised me a bit, too. **JM** has been around for years, and has over 30,000 posts. I think i know just about every name on the SDMB that has more than about 10,000 posts attached to it. It does happen, though, that people sometimes just have different interests and don’t cross paths very much. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/70 "2010-11-16T00:56:26Z")
I guess I ‘know’ both of them so well that it surprises me that one doesn’t know much about the other. You and Nemo are right though…it’s a big board, and there are a lot of forums that I don’t regularly visit, and probably a lot of dopers who never stray into GD who are well known to most but wouldn’t know me from Adam (which wouldn’t be all that surprising)…or vice versa. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/71 "2010-11-16T01:27:25Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand that job growth hasn’t been keeping up with population growth. If you can quote that I said it was, then you might have a point. But you won’t be able to do that, because I haven’t said it. > [@](#): > > You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand that wages haven’t been keeping up with inflation. Never said that, either. > [@](#): > > You’re the fucking idiot who doesn’t understand the pattern of back-to-back jobless recoveries that are now hitting like run-on sentences to the point that we’re looking at the possibility of a double-dip to boot. Never said we might not have a d-d recession. In fact, I know that I have posted about that possibility. > [@](#): > > And you know what’s even funnier? Your OWN IT cite says we’re STILL seeing a 10% drop in CS degrees being handed out. Which means 10% more people are giving up in mid-stream than were the year before. 10% more people STAMPEDING away once they realize what the real job market is like. What are you talking about? You know what, you idiot? It takes 4 years, typically, to get a degree, If we’re seeing an uptick in enrollment in CS programs now, and in the last 2 years, we won’t see that in the graduation rates until those people, well, graduate. So, no, it doesn’t mean that 10% more people are giving up. It means that we’re seeing people get degrees today (actually, last May) who enrolled in 2005/6. Oh, did I mention that you’re an idiot? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/72 "2010-11-16T01:32:56Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > People like me use people like you for recruitment. I’m counting the number of people in this thread that you’ve “recruited”. I’m up to zero. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/73 "2010-11-16T02:08:44Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh well. And while you’re at it you might explain to me why I should care if you or anyone else likes me or not. Nevertheless, I offer the “you are a jerk” hypothesis to explain certain observed phenomena, such as responses in this thread that are more sympathetic to John Mace than to you. Jerk. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/74 "2010-11-16T03:07:32Z")
I renounce, denounce, and refudiate a whole bunch of his comments. There. That should put about 50 points in my non-partisan credential bank. Just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/75 "2010-11-16T05:10:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m counting the number of people in this thread that you’ve “recruited”. I’m up to zero. Oh, a bunch of internet posters on one thread versus an entire country where most people see your entire point of view as being full of shit? Math question: which group is larger? > [@](#): > > You know what, you idiot? It takes 4 years, typically, to get a degree, If we’re seeing an uptick in enrollment in CS programs now, and in the last 2 years, we won’t see that in the graduation rates until those people, well, graduate. So, no, it doesn’t mean that 10% more people are giving up. It means that we’re seeing people get degrees today (actually, last May) who enrolled in 2005/6. It means, you flaming dickless retard, that your temporary gains are going to get eaten up by a steadily DECLINING percentage of people who stay in the field. The dropout rate isn’t decreasing, nor is it static - it’s accelerating, although accelerating slower than before. Of course your fantasy scenario here is that it’ll STOP accelerating in 4 years. Keep hope alive and all that. Now go run and hide behind your support gang and enjoy the ever increasing opposition you’re dealing with on SDMB. It’s obvious from the amount of opposition to offshoring that I’m better off taking this fight against your idiot kind to real life via activism, where people like you will be put on the spot. Oh don’t worry I ain’t leavin’ here. It’s just that your arguments have jumped the shark and you’ve exhausted all your hope for potency; I know all the gaping weaknesses in the pro-offshoring argument, and you’ve helped expose them. Oh yeah, and you’re still a dickless flaming retard, too. Go take your “support on the SDMB” and cram it up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/76 "2010-11-16T05:15:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nevertheless, I offer the “you are a jerk” hypothesis to explain certain observed phenomena, such as responses in this thread that are more sympathetic to John Mace than to you. Okay… and? They don’t like my arguments. But what I’m saying is true, and it’s going to bite the entire pro-offshoring community on their ass. I ran into the SAME bullshit when I said Bush’s tax cuts wouldn’t work the way they were intended (and they didn’t), I ran into the same universal “you’re a jerk” when I said that subprime mortgages were going to lead to disaster (and they did), and the same loathing when I said the subprime CRASH was going to lead to a financial panic (and Lord, did it ever). Matter of fact, I put my JOB on the line fighting in meetings to keep my employer (a community bank) from getting deep into the subprime market. I got far worse from the owners and the (former) higher-ups than any of you will ever throw at me, combined. So again, I say… and? What’s your point? Fucktard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/77 "2010-11-16T05:35:44Z")
You correctly predicted that a market crash would lead to financial panic? Step aside, Nostradamus, you’ve got nothing on **Le Jackass**. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/78 "2010-11-16T05:42:31Z")
> [@](#): > > You seriously never noticed John Mace before? > [@](#): > > That surprised me a bit, too. > > JM has been around for years, and has over 30,000 posts. I think i know just about every name on the SDMB that has more than about 10,000 posts attached to it. > > It does happen, though, that people sometimes just have different interests and don’t cross paths very much. > [@](#): > > I guess I ‘know’ both of them so well that it surprises me that one doesn’t know much about the other. You and Nemo are right though…it’s a big board, and there are a lot of forums that I don’t regularly visit, and probably a lot of dopers who never stray into GD who are well known to most but wouldn’t know me from Adam (which wouldn’t be all that surprising)…or vice versa. That’s probably the case. There’s a lot of GD topics I don’t even bother opening. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/79 "2010-11-16T14:25:42Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh, a bunch of internet posters on one thread versus an entire country where most people see your entire point of view as being full of shit? Math question: which group is larger? Uh, I think the relevant question is which group is smarter? That is, if we’re trying to determine who is right. Although If we go by a weighted average, based on your posting in this thread, it might be the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/80 "2010-11-16T16:47:02Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You brain dead retard, I said 8% since 2007 because they didn’t have stats beyond 2007-2008. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh, a bunch of internet posters on one thread versus an entire country where most people see your entire point of view as being full of shit? Math question: which group is larger? Why don’t you apply the same logic. 1. Most of the people in the country have not expressed an opinion of whether or not you’re an idiot. 2. The people in this thread have expressed a consensus that you’re an idiot. 3. In the absense of any evidence of what the entire country thinks about you, we’ll assume that the evidence of this thread is generally applicable. 4. Therefore, everyone in the entire country thinks you’re an idiot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=5)