# John Mace Says: "Americans are too stupid to educate themselves..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703 "2010-11-15T04:02:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/101 "2011-03-25T01:59:09Z")
Shut the hell up, Jaquelope. You got your ass handed to you in this zombie back in November, and now you want to use some random xenophobe to resurrect it. The cite’s not even a study, just a random computer science professor spouting off about how we have too many immigrants. Here’s your guy explaining what he means by “internal brain drain”: > [@](#): > > “It’s an issue of money…It’s all due to an oversupply of people” created by immigration policies, he said. Those furriners are stealing our jobs!!! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/102 "2011-03-25T02:50:57Z")
[QUOTE=Le Jacquelope] It turns out that Americans are not only leaving tech. They’re fleeing the entire scientific and technological industry, overall [/QUOTE] You came back in to post a ‘cite’ from a blog…and you think this proves anything? You bumped a thread that’s been dead, and one in which you pretty much humiliated yourself repeatedly? What…you some sort of masochist or something? 😛 I mean, besides the obvious, which is you are an idiot of course… -XT ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/103 "2011-03-25T13:44:58Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Clue for the dimwitted, tolling OP: \*\*John Mace \*\*is a lefty. He and **Silenus** are two of the more reasonable lefties around here, but lefty they are. Kinda sad. I’m trying to lure them back to the side of the Jedi. Lefty he may be, but he’s one of the very few people of either political viewpoint who actually understands business and economics on this board. Too many people on here don’t understand those things, and when **John** points out how things actually work, they assume that because he doesn’t hold to their misinformed interpretations, he’s automatically super right-wing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/104 "2011-03-25T13:52:47Z")
Norman Matloff is a crank [who has been lecturing on the perils of immigration for years](http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/pub/Immigration/Imm.html). Perhaps you could quote Pat Buchanan next. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/105 "2011-03-25T14:18:53Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Those furriners are stealing our jobs!!! Jaq off’s next thread is going to be about furries stealing our jobs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/106 "2011-03-25T15:26:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Norman Matloff is a crank [who has been lecturing on the perils of immigration for years](http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/pub/Immigration/Imm.html). > > Perhaps you could quote Pat Buchanan next. Yeah, but did you read the article? He says that some of his best friends are immigrants! ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/107 "2011-03-25T15:32:28Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Ever heard of the phrase “if everyone else is stupid but you, the problem probably is not them”? This is just too precious for words. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/108 "2011-03-25T15:51:18Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > This is just too precious for words. It does sum up this thread very concisely. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/109 "2011-03-25T16:13:18Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It does sum up this thread very concisely. And practically every other thread started by the OP. I’m not sure if he was being ironic or not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/110 "2011-03-25T18:27:35Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Oh dear God, this is comedy gold. > > The straight dope is that We the People are too stupid to educate ourselves in this or that. Therefore our viewpoints are cult-like and we’re “Economic Creationists”. Oh and good job describing Americans as being lazier and stupider than immigrants. I don’t know if John Mace had to use the word “stupid” but frankly we are of very average intelligence and all the areas with great employment opportunities requires higher than average intelligence and there is a shortage of those people in our economy. More of those people might lead to fuller employment in other areas (that Indian computer enginner that just got a greencard is going to want a house and he is going to have plumbing problems and his car is going to break down etc…). We should be stapling a greencard to every engineering degree and graduate level science and math degree rather than sending them back to their country to invent the next great thing in Fujing Province. If we keep doing that then we are going to lose all those high paying jobs to China and India as well. There is simply little downside to America if we brain drain teh rest of teh wrold. I don’t understand why its not national policy. This doesn’t mean we should throw everyone else under the bus and open our borders to anyone that wants to come here or let our trading aprtners take advantage of us but over the long run, being in first place is going to require a lot more than running in place. We best we can hope for is to slow outsourcing of low value jobs to a slow enough rate that our population can adapt. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/111 "2011-03-25T18:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > We should be stapling a greencard to every engineering degree and graduate level science and math degree rather than sending them back to their country to invent the next great thing in Fujing Province. One problem is that the new R&D labs are opening in Fujing. The 90s saw a great closing of industrial R&D labs in the US both because of companies going under and of many companies closing US labs and opening new ones in China, India, and other places with lower overhead. It’ll take more than stapling green cards to diplomas to get those R&D jobs back to the states. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/112 "2011-03-25T18:33:25Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Clue for the dimwitted, tolling OP: \*\*John Mace \*\*is a lefty. He and **Silenus** are two of the more reasonable lefties around here, but lefty they are. Kinda sad. I’m trying to lure them back to the side of the Jedi. John Mace always struck me as slightly right of center. And Jedi’s would be left of center. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/113 "2011-03-25T18:36:06Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > One problem is that the new R&D labs are opening in Fujing. The 90s saw a great closing of industrial R&D labs in the US both because of companies going under and of many companies closing US labs and opening new ones in China, India, and other places with lower overhead. It’ll take more than stapling green cards to diplomas to get those R&D jobs back to the states. ISTM that those R&D labs are staffed with a lot of US educated scientists and engineers. Perhaps its too late to close that barn door (perhaps there is already a critical mass of technical knowledge over htere that they could continue to grow even if we kept every engineera nd scietist we educated from ehre on out) but right now we are sending more and more US trained scientists and engineers to those foreign labs. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/114 "2011-03-25T18:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > ISTM that those R&D labs are staffed with a lot of US educated scientists and engineers. 1.) Do you have a cite about whether this is a large number, or even true? 2.) If it is, what good does that do us? The money’s being earned outside the country and staying there. The taxes go there. And it doesn’t help unemployment in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/115 "2011-03-25T19:13:03Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Clue for the dimwitted, tolling OP: \*\*John Mace \*\*is a lefty. He and **Silenus** are two of the more reasonable lefties around here, but lefty they are. Kinda sad. I’m trying to lure them back to the side of the Jedi. Can I come along too? I could be the JarJar of the right wing. Or does Palin already have that role locked up? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/116 "2011-03-25T20:59:39Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Jaq off’s next thread is going to be about furries stealing our jobs. Awesome username/post combo. Jaq probably don’t take kindly to panda bears. > **[Not Taking Kindly - South Park | South Park Studios US](https://southpark.cc.com/video-clips/8uiln3/south-park-not-taking-kindly)** > > The rednecks at the bar don't take kindly to eight-year-olds. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/117 "2011-03-26T01:39:23Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Shut the hell up, Jaquelope. You got your ass handed to you in this zombie back in November Make me. I dragged your buddies uphill across cobblestone on this thread. And many others. You’re nothing to me. My facts are perfect. Fuck off, and bite it. > [@](#): > > , and now you want to use some random xenophobe to resurrect it. The cite’s not even a study, just a random computer science professor spouting off about how we have too many immigrants. Here’s your guy explaining what he means by “internal brain drain”: Those furriners are stealing our jobs!!! Don’t you worry your peanut sized brain about this. Those foreigners will take a giant economic fall when America runs out of jobs to outsource. Foreign nations need America as an export market. Without us they’re fucked. And soon. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/118 "2011-03-26T01:43:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Lefty he may be, but he’s one of the very few people of either political viewpoint who actually understands business and economics on this board. > > Too many people on here don’t understand those things, and when **John** points out how things actually work, they assume that because he doesn’t hold to their misinformed interpretations, he’s automatically super right-wing. John Headcase does not point out how things work. You go by the crap he spews and you will go horribly wrong. That’s why I left this thread wiping him off my shoes like excrement. His theories are based on pure rote memorization and are poorly adapted to what is going on now. Like when the bumblefuck said people were coming back to tech and now it turns out I was right - they’re running away from ANYTHING science-related. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/119 "2011-03-26T02:13:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know if John Mace had to use the word “stupid” but frankly we are of very average intelligence and all the areas with great employment opportunities requires higher than average intelligence and there is a shortage of those people in our economy. If there’s such a shortage then why are wages in all those related fields so flat? > [@](#): > > More of those people might lead to fuller employment in other areas (that Indian computer enginner that just got a greencard is going to want a house and he is going to have plumbing problems and his car is going to break down etc…). We should be stapling a greencard to every engineering degree and graduate level science and math degree rather than sending them back to their country to invent the next great thing in Fujing Province. If we keep doing that then we are going to lose all those high paying jobs to China and India as well. There is simply little downside to America if we brain drain teh rest of teh wrold. I don’t understand why its not national policy. Because it increases the amount of competition for the already heavily-saturated high tech field. And it totally marginalizes the American-born tech graduates who are also looking for work. > [@](#): > > This doesn’t mean we should throw everyone else under the bus and open our borders to anyone that wants to come here or let our trading aprtners take advantage of us but over the long run, being in first place is going to require a lot more than running in place. Actually, maybe we should import these people. If these countries will allow the Americans who already live here, to immigrate there. America’s jobless folks, thanks to all this H1B’ing and offshoring, will do far better off by leaving the United States. The ship has sailed and is far out of port for them here. The H1B’s can come here and America’s unemployed can go there. Would that sound fair? > [@](#): > > We best we can hope for is to slow outsourcing of low value jobs to a slow enough rate that our population can adapt. At least until the national debt which is directly affected by outsourcing finally overwhelms our currency. What John Headcase and Tahass and Buck Godolt fail to realize is that all this offshoring is causing a massive trade deficit which is in fact _[directly devaluing America’s currency](http://www.economyincrisis.org/content/americas-trade-deficit-too-real-money)_. This is a major issue that, as you’ll notice, they try to avoid whenever it is brought up; offshoring is inherently increasing our national debt and inevitably it will contribute to the collapse of the US dollar. When that happens there will be.no.more.offshoring. Oh and all those H1B’s will be caught high and dry right along with the rest of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/120 "2011-03-26T02:19:05Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > Jaq off’s next thread is going to be about furries stealing our jobs. Barf Panda the only reason you’re spouting off at the keyboard like this is because you can’t hope to dispute what Norman Matloff said. His facts are totally accurate and he made a total armpit scratching monkey out of shit-barfing numbskulls like you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=7)