# John Mace Says: "Americans are too stupid to educate themselves..." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703 "2010-11-15T04:02:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/161 "2011-03-27T14:27:27Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > 80% of the rest of this country laughs its ass off at the opinions this forum puts forth when it comes to economics. That is, if even 1% of them even knew about you, which they don’t, and would wish they didn’t if they did. Enough of the country knows about this forum enough and takes it seriously enough that \*Eighty Percent of the country \*has an opinion on what we think about the economy? Wish I’d known we were that big. I’d have put on pants before I posted. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/162 "2011-03-27T14:33:42Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Nobody comes here who supports tariffs. Which is what we’ve been trying to tell you. Nobody supports tariffs, certainly not 86% of Americans, 90% of Republicans, and definitely not 57% of high-earning Americans. That’s why this is so amusing. Even in the “links” you post, economics talk about the effects of offshoring, and then qualify the statement by saying we shouldn’t have tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/163 "2011-03-27T14:37:05Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > They’re stampeding away from most of the computer science-related fields, not just IT. And offshoring and the H1B madness are two of the primary reasons why. Yes, I know this is hard for people here to grasp. And again you show you don’t know what an H1B/TN visa is. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/164 "2011-03-27T14:52:51Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I’m pretty sure \*\*John Mace \*\*was being ironic. I believe he was saying: > > “[Americans are perfectly able to] educate themselves in areas with great employment potential and high wages. And when they actually are too stupid, we have thousands of foreigners dying to immigrate here and fill those slots that Americans are too stupid to fill.” > > IOW, in response to the OPs suggestion that we will run out of entry level computer geeks, Mace is saying that if there is a demand for those skills, Americans will either train to do them or we can import those skills if needed. This is why we need a _SARCASM_ smiley. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/165 "2011-03-27T14:54:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You can’t debate. You could fling poo if your arms were strong enough. Actually, you can spit it pretty damned far. > Funny, how I have little interest in anything you say, either. You can’t formulate a coherent thought to save your life. > > 80% of the rest of this country laughs its ass off at the opinions this forum puts forth when it comes to economics. That is, if even 1% of them even knew about you, which they don’t, and would wish they didn’t if they did. > > In any case, reading anything else you have to say is beneath me. I would say I don’t care what you think - but you do not, and cannot think. Of course while you consider your random gibberish to be thinking, that again is your problem, not mine. > > You will continue to throw temper tantrums at me but being a smarter man than you, and one not interested in wasting time on you, I will be silencing you for good from here on. You can feel free to fling poo at your four white walls. You’re so mean. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/166 "2011-03-27T14:55:39Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Enough of the country knows about this forum enough and takes it seriously enough that \*Eighty Percent of the country \*has an opinion on what we think about the economy? > > Wish I’d known we were that big. I’d have put on pants before I posted. _That is, if even 1% of them even knew about you, which they don’t, and would wish they didn’t if they did._ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/167 "2011-03-27T16:06:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Could you provide another link to the article please? I can’t find it in this thread. The poll he is talking about asked what people thought were the biggest factors contributing to the current economic downturn. Offshoring of jobs was at the top, with 68% strongly agreeing and 18% somewhat agreeing. Just google “wall street journal poll offshoring”. Now, I don’t know if you can really count the “somewhat agree” folks as being opposed to offshoring. At best, they are “somewhat” opposed to it, whatever that means. Still, 68% is well over 50%. But that still doesn’t mean they are actually opposed to offshoring. Let’s do another poll and tell them that eliminated offshoring will raise prices by 15% (that’s probably very conservative) and see what they think. They might as well have asked everyone if he wants a pony. All it proves is that most people are uninformed about economics. Is anyone surprised about that? Remember, these are the same people who want prayer in school, who think evolution is “just a theory” and who largely oppose efforts to deal with global warming. The same people who flock to WalMart to buy all the cheap stuff from China. When they start boycotting WalMart in order to force them sell locally manufactured goods, then I’ll believe the oppose offshoring. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/168 "2011-03-27T17:11:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that still doesn’t mean they are actually opposed to offshoring. Let’s do another poll and tell them that eliminated offshoring will raise prices by 15% (that’s probably very conservative) and see what they think. Yep, this is the key. (Thanks for explaining the poll results.) Plenty of people oppose offshoring as a general principle if they don’t have to think about the consequences. “Should American companies keep jobs here in the United States, or send them overseas to places like China and India?” Pretty easy answer, right, if you don’t have to do anything more than respond to a survey question. And yet those same people are probably spending most of their money on goods that come in from those very same places. Plenty of Americans want jobs to stay here, in the abstract, but also want to be able to purchase DVD players for $30, and packets of 40 plastic coathangers for $1.99. They don’t like tech and warranty support from India, but they don’t want 40 bucks added to the price of their computer in order to keep the call centers in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/169 "2011-03-27T18:09:41Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > …40 plastic coathangers for $1.99. But wait! If you act now, we’ll double your order. That’s 80 plastic coat hangers for $1.99. If you are unsatisfied, you can return them for a full refund. We’ll let you keep the Chinese laborer who made them as our gift. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/170 "2011-03-27T18:14:32Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yep, this is the key. (Thanks for explaining the poll results.) > > Plenty of people oppose offshoring as a general principle if they don’t have to think about the consequences. ROTFLMAO what a load of wishful thinking. People already understand the consequences of offshoring. They’re tired enough of it that politicians who support protectionism are winning elections over those who oppose it… whenever there is actually a clearly-presented choice between the two at the ballot box. Nowadays you cannot lose by standing for protectionism. Nobody runs on a “I oppose protectionism” plank. _Nobody._ So your denials have no legs to stand on here. > [@](#): > > And yet those same people are probably spending most of their money on goods that come in from those very same places. Ummm, because they have no choice? That’s like saying most people commute to work instead of telecommuting. Again, you’re seriously grasping. And Made-In-The-USA is gaining in popularity. > **['Made in the USA' popular with consumers again](https://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/2009/10/post_8.html)** > > Weak dollar and Chinese-made toy recalls cause shift in consumer attitudes. With arguments like this how is it that you can ask any American worker to take you seriously? I mean, really. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/171 "2011-03-27T18:47:26Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Ummm, because they have no choice? That’s like saying most people commute to work instead of telecommuting. Again, you’re seriously grasping. > > And Made-In-The-USA is gaining in popularity. > ['Made in the USA' popular with consumers again - mlive.com](http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2009/10/post_8.html) So, first you tell us that consumers have no choice in what they buy, and then you link to an article that gives multiple examples of stores that emphasize American-made products. From your article: > [@](#): > > Figuring out what is made here and abroad can be a challenge. > > Several search engines such as [madeinusa.org](http://madeinusa.org), [made-In.US.com](http://made-In.US.com), [stillmadeinusa.com](http://stillmadeinusa.com), and [buydirectusa.com](http://buydirectusa.com) aim to connect companies and consumers. > > Wine, furniture and clothing are the most searched products on [MadeinUSA.com](http://MadeinUSA.com), said company spokeswoman Holly Pelham-Davis. The Web site calls the practice of buying American-made products “patriotic spending.” > > \ > > The Web site’s registry lists more than 300,000 companies… So, which is it? Do Americans have a choice, or not? Do those 300,000 companies exist, or are they figments of the writer’s imagination? No-one here is arguing that “Buy American” is necessarily a bad thing. If you want to spend your money on goods produced in the United States, go right ahead. I think there’s a decent argument to be made for supporting jobs at home, although, to be honest, i also have nothing against workers in China or India or Mexico being able to earn a living either. I have no more personal investment in a laborer working in Massachusetts or Mississippi than i do in a laborer working in Beijing or Mumbai or Juarez. The latter need to eat just as much as the former. For me, a more important question than where the jobs are is the conditions under which the work is being undertaken. Admittedly, that’s often hard to know, especially when it comes to plants overseas. I’d prefer not to give my money to companies that pay sub-poverty wages and treat their workers like shit, and that applies whether the factory is here or overseas. The main advantage America has here is in having somewhat better workplace protections (OSHA, etc.) and consumer protections (FTC, FDA, etc.) than some other countries. I think these types of protections are a good thing. The New York City [Triangle Shirtwaist Fire](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/triangle-fire-a-frontier-in-photojournalism/) was 100 years ago last Friday, and helped usher in some of these protections for workers. It is proper regulation and oversight that prevents things like this from happening. But, getting back to your main argument: you can claim that people have no choice, but it siply isn’t true. The fact is that, for fairly good economic reasons, most people spend their money where it goes the furthest, and where it is most convenient. It’s not that people _can’t_ buy American; for the most part, they choose not to. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/172 "2011-03-27T21:13:05Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > If there’s such a shortage then why are wages in all those related fields so flat? > **[U.S. Engineering Salaries Rise Sharply](https://spectrum.ieee.org/us-engineering-salaries-rise-sharply)** > > EE starting salaries are up 13 percent; some other fields do even better > **[Engineering Salary Statistics | Michigan Technological University](https://www.mtu.edu/engineering/about/salary/)** > > Engineers get top pay. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) engineers have a median annual wage of $91,420. The engineering field projects to have employment growth of 195,000 jobs from 2023 to 2033. > **[Engineering Salaries Continue to Rise Despite Concern Over Shortages |...](https://www.nspe.org/media-inquiries/press-releases/engineering-salaries-continue-rise-despite-concern-over-shortages)** > > Despite recent concerns about a potential shortage of engineering graduates and the outlook for future engineering jobs, The Engineering Income & Salary Survey, produced by the National Society of Professional Engineers, shows a steady rise in both... Thats not to say there isn’t some movement going on but there has always been and always will be some fluidity to the job market. The areas where we are seeing entire vocations evaporate in the USA are vocations that are low skill outsourcable vocations. > [@](#): > > Actually, maybe we should import these people. If these countries will allow the Americans who already live here, to immigrate there. We already pay a bunch of corporations to run prisons for our criminals. Perhaps we can send them to China (we would seriously save a TON of money). [quote] The H1B’s can come here and America’s unemployed can go there. Would that sound fair?{/quote] I don’t know the solution to this problem but I do think that we have some people that have become almost unemployable at anything more than minimum wage who USED to make $40-$50/hour. When I graduated from college, engineers were making about $28,000, an assembly line worker with 5 years on the job was making a similar amount. This was probably a situation that could not last, and it didn’t. What we are seeing today is not the result of unions, its the result of globalization and unlike unions, you get rid of globalization. > [@](#): > > At least until the national debt which is directly affected by outsourcing finally overwhelms our currency. The tax rate and medicare/medicaid has a far greater direct impact on our national debt. > [@](#): > > What John Headcase and Tahass and Buck Godolt fail to realize is that all this offshoring is causing a massive trade deficit which is in fact _[directly devaluing America’s currency](http://www.economyincrisis.org/content/americas-trade-deficit-too-real-money)_. I always thought that a weak currency meant more exports. The problem is when you have a trade deficit and your trading partner doesn’t let your currency get weak (this is the major issue we have with China’s trade practices, they’re propping up our currency and we’d like to see it get cheap so that the price of imports rise and the price of exports drop). > [@](#): > > This is a major issue that, as you’ll notice, they try to avoid whenever it is brought up; offshoring is inherently increasing our national debt and inevitably it will contribute to the collapse of the US dollar. Offshoring is inevitable and it is manageable. We’ve been offshoring for decades. The problem right now IMHO is the PACE of offshoring. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/173 "2011-03-27T21:16:27Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You are a laughable minority now. You used to be a majority but your bullshit finally caught up with you. _When does this sink into your tiny little brains?_ When the heck were they ever a majority. They had theoretical results that would reliably manifest themselves in the real world if the real world operated on the same assumptions as their theoretical world. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/174 "2011-03-27T21:21:32Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Lone? I’m hardly alone asshole. I have 80% of the country behind me. 80% think there is a problem, they don’t agree with your solutions, just the existence of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/175 "2011-03-27T21:25:55Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > They’re stampeding away from most of the computer science-related fields, not just IT. And offshoring and the H1B madness are two of the primary reasons why. Yes, I know this is hard for people here to grasp. > The Black Knight doesn’t chop off his own arms like you and the rest of you Dopers do when you try to debate. You’re more like that guy from Walk Hard. > > Shouldn’t you guys be going back to your “Jacquelope hates ALL trade with ANYONE” hysterics\* that you’re so famous for on here? > > - hysterics. now there’s a sexist word that I’m surprised the censorship-happy Dope hasn’t raised their hackles about. I thought your focus on the computer science (and especially the R&D) was because the counter argument to your concerns about offshoring was that we were offshoring the modern equivalent of the buggy whip making industry, jobs that we basically don’t want to keep anyways. You pointed out that we were offshoring jobs that were further and futher up the human capital and technology ladder. Not just that these jobs were being created overseas but that we were dismantling operations here and moving them overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/176 "2011-03-27T21:27:56Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > This is why we need a _SARCASM_ smiley. Its too bad we don’t have anything like that. :p;):D:cool: ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/177 "2011-03-28T00:53:31Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > _That is, if even 1% of them even knew about you, which they don’t, and would wish they didn’t if they did._ I know you’re just trying to make me feel better about posting pantsless, and it’s certainly sweet of you to do so. I’m just going to have to get my suit out of the closet and smarten myself up a bit if I’m going to be in front of the nation. Though to be honest I should probably try to compose more intelligent posts, but that’s hard work. Less so than wearing a suit and posting crap. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/178 "2011-03-28T02:34:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that still doesn’t mean they are actually opposed to offshoring. Let’s do another poll and tell them that eliminated offshoring will raise prices by 15% (that’s probably very conservative) and see what they think. Hey, prices wouldn’t necessarily be raised. We could institute, in addition to the punitive tariffs that **Le Jackass** wants, a price freeze. Prices wouldn’t go up! It worked under Nixon, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/179 "2011-03-28T04:03:51Z")
We should hire a bunch of asian Economics PhD students to argue with Jaq for us 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703/180 "2011-03-28T04:38:29Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > Hey, prices wouldn’t necessarily be raised. We could institute, in addition to the punitive tariffs that **Le Jackass** wants, a price freeze. Prices wouldn’t go up! It worked under Nixon, didn’t it? You know, I was in high school when that was going on. I do remember it. Can you imagine if someone tried to impose price controls in this day and age? I almost feel like I remember a time when we were burning witches. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mace-says-americans-are-too-stupid-to-educate-themselves/560703.md?page=10)