# John McCain and Barack Obama NOT Qualified to Be President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044 "2008-10-29T03:24:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/21 "2008-10-29T16:15:02Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > We have been through all this [before](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=453820&highlight=natural+born). Here is a quote from Wikipedia: > > The issue isn’t whether McCain was a citizen when born, it’s whether he is a “natural born” citizen as required in The Constitution. Admittedly I’m not a lawyer, but to me “citizen when born” vs. “natural born citizen” seems like a tautology. Ed ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/22 "2008-10-29T16:40:39Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > If a veteran in Iraq gets an Iraqi woman pregnant the child is an American the second it’s born. Why? Because one of his parents are a citizen. > > He’s NATURAL BORN because he’s an American Citizen from birth and didn’t have to take out any papers to become a citizen. To play a bit of devil’s advocate: The child is only an American citizen because U.S. law says so. What if the law said both parents had to be citizens? Then the child would not be a U.S. Citizen. So, since it totally depends on an Act of Congress, how can this child be considered a “natural” born citizen ? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/23 "2008-10-29T16:43:42Z")
I believe **Dan** is saying that it has not been legally determined that “natural born citizen,” which is inarguably legal standard, whatever ts meaing, is defined as being a citizen at birth. Although, like you, I don’t believe there is any other reasonable interpretation. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/24 "2008-10-29T16:53:36Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, since it totally depends on an Act of Congress, how can this child be considered a “natural” born citizen ? Why is that relevant? –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/25 "2008-10-29T17:01:24Z")
This OP is like a weird internet Twilight Zone episode where we’re all transported back to 2007. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/26 "2008-10-29T17:13:54Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Admittedly I’m not a lawyer, but to me “citizen when born” vs. “natural born citizen” seems like a tautology. Wait until it comes out that McCain was from his mother’s womb untimely ripp’d. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/27 "2008-10-29T17:14:36Z")
Again, embassies and military bases are NOT US soil. If a pregnant Panamanian woman goes into labor and gives birth at an American military hospital on an American military base the child does not automatically become a US citizen. McCain was a US citizen when he was born, not because he was born in the US controlled canal zone or on a US military base, but because both his parents were US citizens. Obama was a US citizen when he was born because he was born in the United States, in Hawaii. The citizenship status of his parents is irrelevant. Now, suppose Obama’s mother had been visiting Kenya and went into labor and Obama had been born in Kenya. It wouldn’t matter if she gave birth at the US embassy or in some rural hut. His mother would be a US citizen, his father would be an alien. As Whack-a-mole posted: > [@](#): > > (g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years Obama would therefore have been born outside the geographical limits of the United States. One parent an alien, the other a citizen. Was his citizen parent physically presnet in the US for not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years? Yes she was. Therefore, Obama would be born a US citizen even if he had been born in Kenya. The only logical interpretation of the “natural born” clause in the Constitution is that it means anyone who was born a citizen. Even if Obama had been born in Kenya he would be a natural born citizen. Even though McCain was born in Panama, he is a natural born citizen. Any other interpretation of “natural born” is simply silly. Yes, it’s never been tested by the Supreme Court. But if McCain wins the election next week, he’s going to serve as president, and the Supreme Court isn’t going to make a peep. What’s the difference between McCain being a natural born citizen, and McCain not being a natural born citizen, yet everyone including the Supreme Court agrees to pretend he is? If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/28 "2008-10-29T17:18:15Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > While it’s a moot point for Obama or McCain, if someone was born to U.S. citizens on foreign soil would they be eligible for the presidency? > > I was born in Istanbul Turkey to American citizens in the Foreign Service. Am I allowed to be president? Does Homeland Security know about you? ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/29 "2008-10-29T19:18:53Z")
See, this is why English is such a stoopid language to write legal documents in. I, for one, choose to parse it thusly: > [@](#): > > No person except a natural born Citizen (or a Citizen of the United States) **at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution** , shall be eligible to the Office of President. ZOMBIE WASHINGTON '08!!! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/30 "2008-10-29T19:23:12Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > ZOMBIE WASHINGTON '08!!! No!! Abigail Adams for Pres! First Second Lady, Second First Lady, wife of a president, and mother of a president. How much better qualified can you be? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/31 "2008-10-29T19:27:41Z")
Not doubting that McCain and Obama are qualified, but who specifically is responsible for making sure that presidential candidates qualify? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/32 "2008-10-29T19:44:23Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Wait until it comes out that McCain was from his mother’s womb untimely ripp’d. John Sidney Macduff! I knew it!! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/33 "2008-10-29T20:09:53Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Again, embassies and military bases are NOT US soil. [nitpick] Embassies are treated as if you are in that country. If I sneak in to the Russian embassy in Washington and shoot someone Russia will be handling my prosecution. This is why people seek refuge in an Embassy. Other countries will not enter the embassy because it amounts to invading that country’s sovereignty. This, I think, is one of the few international arrangements all countries are loathe to violate (of course there have been exceptions such as in Iran). They want their embassies treated the same way so they leave other countries embassies in their country well alone. > [@](#): > > Under international law, diplomatic missions enjoy an extraterritorial status and thus, although remaining part of the host country’s territory, they are exempt from local law and in almost all respects treated as being part of the territory of the home country. > > SOURCE: [Diplomatic mission - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_mission) [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/34 "2008-10-29T20:12:18Z")
> [@US Constitution](#): > > No person except a natural born Citizen (or a Citizen of the United States) **at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution** , shall be eligible to the Office of President. Oh, so McCain’s still okay. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/35 "2008-10-29T20:18:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > [nitpick] > > Embassies are treated as if you are in that country. > [/nitpick] You aren’t subject to local law while you’re in the Russian Embassy. That doesn’t mean if you give birth in a US embassy your child becomes a US citizen. Embassies are extraterritorial, they are not literally part of the territory of the country that sent the embassy. John McCain is not a US citizen because he was born in the Canal Zone and the Canal Zone was considered US soil. He is a US citizen because his parents were US citizens. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/36 "2008-10-29T20:53:32Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Not doubting that McCain and Obama are qualified, but who specifically is responsible for making sure that presidential candidates qualify? From my experience with elections, it depends on the state. Some states, basically anyone with proper ID can submit his/her name to be on the ballot, at most merely swearing that they’re qualified, and it’s up to contenders to challenge their eligibility. Others may require to file “proof-of-” papers that someone has to look at and find good enough, but that someone may be the Party and not the Elections Board. Whoever’s the authority in charge of receiving your application to be on the ballot for the primary or election in each (Elections Commissioner, State Secretary, whathaveyou), should be responsible for not wasting tax dollars on someone not qualified to hold the position sought, _ **however** _, even where documents of proof are required the authority AFAIK does **not** assume an inquisitorial role in vetting the candidate on their own initiative – that would lend itself to discriminatory blocking of candidates. In our GOP caucus and Dem Primary this year (we do have Prez Primaries, even though we don’t have actual EV’s), it was merely a matter of the local managers signing a statement that Mrs. Rodham-Clinton and Messrs. Huckabee, Romney, McCain and Obama were qualified, under penalty of law if that statement was false. Had it been so the EB would then have brought charges of making false statements (a misdemeanor or lower-category felony, I forget which right now). ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/37 "2008-10-29T20:56:03Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > This OP is like a weird internet Twilight Zone episode where we’re all transported back to 2007. Yeah, really. I just want to know why the OP thinks that Obama was born in Kenya. > [@Jim\_B](#): > > Okay, now why they are both not allegedly qualified to be president. McCain was allegedly born in Panama, Barack Obama in Kenya. Ohhhh…_allegedly_. I see. Well, John McCain is allegedly not only not a natural-born citizen. He’s not even human! He’s an alien from the planet Xenon sent here to collect data human bureaucracies. The bulge in his cheek? That’s his proboscis. (His nova-rubber man suit used to hold it in better, but the suit’s getting old.) That business about him being stuck in the Hanoi Hilton for 5.5 years? It was just a cover for a vacation back to his home planet. Really. It’s true. I have incontrovertible proof! I read it on the internet. But seriously, I’m really confused as to why this issue persists. Obama was born in the United States of America. He’s a natural-born citizen. Period. End of story. McCain’s situation is a little more complex, but, as is shown in this thread, he meets the qualifications as outlined in the Constitution and as they have been interpreted through the years. It’s less than a week before the election. If there was a problem with either man’s eligibility, we would know by now. You can’t seriously believe that there might be a problem just because some nutjobs and conspiracy theorists persist in spreading idiotic rumors. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/38 "2008-10-29T21:07:42Z")
> [@Cliffy](#): > > Why is that relevant? > > –Cliffy Again Devil’s Advocate, but if something is “natural” then it needs no law to say it is such. If I am holding an orange in my hand, it is an orange, because that is what the thing is. If I am holding a tangerine, and we have a law specifying that for the purposes of whatever citrus festival that a tangerine is considered an “orange” it doesn’t make it, by nature, an orange. For example, what if Congress passed a law saying that "for the purposes of becoming the President, if a person is older than age 16, he/she shall be deemed to have “attained the age of thirty-five years” in accordance with the constitution. Would that be legit? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/39 "2008-10-29T21:38:17Z")
It’s “natural” in that no further action was needed. If you are a US citizen at the time of your birth (however that is determined) you don’t need to petition to become a US citizen. Regardless of what the process is to determine your citizenship, if you never have to apply for it then you are a “natural born citizen”. At least until a court rules otherwise, that’s the framework people are operating under. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044/40 "2008-10-29T21:41:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > For example, what if Congress passed a law saying that "for the purposes of becoming the President, if a person is older than age 16, he/she shall be deemed to have “attained the age of thirty-five years” in accordance with the constitution. > > Would that be legit? Probably not. The courts would rule that it violates the Constitution as the wording is quite clear. The legal definition of “natural born citizen” has never been ruled on by the courts, but the working definition seems pretty much accepted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-barack-obama-not-qualified-to-be-president/470044.md?page=3)