# John McCain and Truthiness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470 "2006-08-20T18:35:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/41 "2006-08-21T01:04:40Z")
And by the way, the interviewer also let him off the hook on the poll results as to a timetable. As on the SDMB, when a factual claim is made, a cite should be asked for. A simple, “Senator, what poll are you using as the basis for your claim?” should suffice. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/42 "2006-08-21T01:14:00Z")
The tragic thing is, you can’t compare McCain to the ideal and reject him. You have to compare him to who’s available and running for office. Sad to say, he might be in the upper stratum of that group. As I have said before, the American experiment in self-government just might be in real trouble at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/43 "2006-08-21T01:19:57Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] The tragic thing is, you can’t compare McCain to the ideal and reject him. [/QUOTE] so, you’re saying you run with the McCain you have, and not with the McCain you wish you had? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/44 "2006-08-21T01:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] …As I have said before, the American experiment in self-government just might be in real trouble at the moment. [/QUOTE] If the people lead, the leaders will follow. Collectively speaking, they are our bitch. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/45 "2006-08-21T01:48:53Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Are you debating with yourself here? [/QUOTE] Libertarians. They’re like that. Nobody knows why, science is baffled. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/46 "2006-08-21T02:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **John Mace** : I saw this interview. Too bad Russert’s stand-in (David Gregory?) didn’t have the poll numbers to counter McCainwith. If they weren’t on the tip of his tongue, I guess I can forgive McCain for not knowing them either. **John** , you see no difference in not citing polls and in misciting polls? David Gregory’s purpose was to _interview_ McCain, not to debate him. A United States Senator has no business being uniformed or making false claims about what reputable polls are showing. After all, he is _claiming_ to know. I was clinging to a little bit of hope for McCain. Nyah. Same ole same ole. It’s all about public relations. The Convenient Lie. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/47 "2006-08-21T03:33:29Z")
[QUOTE=wring] so, you’re saying you run with the McCain you have, and not with the McCain you wish you had? [/QUOTE] Not necessarily McCain. Right now he wouldn’t be on my list. For me to selecet him it would have to be a pretty shabbly list of possibilities. On the other hand, such a shabby list wouldn’t exactly be a surprise to me. You can only select from among those actually on the ballot. > [@elucidator](#): > > If the people lead, the leaders will follow. Collectively speaking, they are our bitch. Maybe so, but the time delay is unconscionably long. By the time some of them find out which way the people are leading, they are out of office. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/48 "2006-08-21T05:47:29Z")
At one point I would have considered voting for McCain if he was facing Hillary. I am reasonably sure that I would vote for almost any other Democrat over McCain. Now (not because of this particular misstatement, of course) I would hold my nose and vote for Hillary. I have some small hope, not based on any real evidence, that for a change I can vote FOR rather than against a candidate. Carter was the last president I voted FOR. I think he was the last president who sincerely wanted more for the American public than for his own agrandizerment… Odds are I was wrong even then, but it FELT good. Is it too early to start a new thread called, “How will the Democrats fuck up THIS election?”? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/49 "2006-08-21T06:05:00Z")
Think you have to really try making a mountain out of a molehill to call this a lie. Polls are not the ultimate arbiters of truth on matters of opinion. There’s no evidence to suggest McCain knew of these polls and believed in them. For that matter, there’s no reason to assume these polls are accurate without looking at the methods used in conducting the poll. Maybe he had other polls. Maybe he was arguing from his own opinion based on what others have told him. Maybe he was just wrong. Bottom line, McCain is probably going to be the next POTUS. There may be reasons to knock him, but this ain’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/50 "2006-08-21T10:52:16Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] I was clinging to a little bit of hope for McCain. Nyah. Same ole same ole. It’s all about public relations. The Convenient Lie. [/QUOTE] And that has made you lose all hope? Well then, you had better get set for some serious disillusionment, because his opponent won’t be any different. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/51 "2006-08-21T12:12:05Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] “The Liberman of the Right” Right On! [/QUOTE] Hmmmmm… while I’m hoping to vote for McCain-Rice in 2008, I could get behind McCain-Lieberman! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/52 "2006-08-21T15:00:27Z")
FWIW I put in an email to [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) giving the relevent details as well as the gist of the complaint. Thus far they haven’t done an article on it (only been a day of course :))…but if they feel he really DID lie (or distort the truth) I have no doubt they will do an article on it. I have a hard time believing that the majority of the outrage here is coming from folks supposedly on the fence about McCain but who are now totally disillusioned about the man. This just doesn’t seem to be that big a deal to warrent the amount of outrage being shown. When he starts coming out regularly in political speeches saying that the majority of American’s support the war in Iraq or something thats a bit easier to prove he’s deliberatly lieing over, THEN is the time to start seriously worrying. I think that on this question things are ambiguous enough to cut the man a bit of slack on it…or at least to withhold passing a damning judgement based solely on this. If someone is going to get their panties in a bunch over something this minor, I have trouble believing they are going to be able, with good consious, to vote for ANYONE…as pretty much every politician I’ve ever heard of distorts facts, lies, or is just wrong at some point. One has only to cruise over to Factcheck and look around to see that this is not something that only one party or one politician does regularly… -XT ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/53 "2006-08-21T15:05:32Z")
He also got off easy for his criticism for everything about the Bush administration except Bush. He criticized Rumsfeld, said he was making mistakes. He then said something to the effect of the president is just listening to his advisors (of whom, Rumsfeld is one). Then he said he knew Bush was doing what it takes to win the war in Iraq. This doesn’t follow. here’s part of the exchnage: > [@](#): > > SEN. McCAIN: Well, it’s obvious that I have not shared the administration’s view. I’ve had strong differences with Secretary Rumsfeld on this issue and other aspects of the war. The, the, the standing down of the Army, rather than hiring them. The, the failure to do a series of measures which were important as part of our effort to control Iraq. here’s some more: > [@](#): > > SEN. McCAIN: I, I think it’s got to do with the decisions that are made in the Pentagon. And I think that that’s the sum total of it, and the advice that the president gets from the people that are on his team. And I don’t think it’s good advice. But I know that the president’s committed to win. I know that he will do what’s necessary. Many times he has said we will do whatever is necessary and I believe him. but he’s following what you have called bad advice, how is that “doing whatever is necessary,” John? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/54 "2006-08-21T15:08:03Z")
whole bean: Now THAT, I’d say, IS a valid criticism. -XT ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/55 "2006-08-21T15:13:58Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] whole bean: Now THAT, I’d say, IS a valid criticism. -XT [/QUOTE] Yes, it sure is. One can also criticize him for the major sucking up he’s been doing to the holier than thou troglodytes who’ve hijacked the Republican Party on social issues. Things like that cast everything else he says and does in a less flattering light, make one more inclined to look for pandering rather than principle in what he says. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/56 "2006-08-21T15:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] the holier than thou troglodytes who’ve hijacked the Republican Party on social issues. [/QUOTE] ::nitpick:: I don’t recall anyone holding the party at gunpoint. In fact I think the trogs were invited in. That makes the current situation more of a ‘hot date’ than a hijacking. ::nitpick:: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/57 "2006-08-21T15:32:19Z")
**XT** would like to change the subject to the insincerity of McCain’s critics. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/58 "2006-08-21T15:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] **John** , you see no difference in not citing polls and in misciting polls? David Gregory’s purpose was to _interview_ McCain, not to debate him. [/quote] Do you watch Meet the Press often? The moderator typically challenges the interviewee if he (the moderator) thinks the interviewee has made a mistake. For example, they usually have archive footage of previous statements made and will throw them up if it looks the interveiwer is stating something different. > [@](#): > > A United States Senator has no business being uniformed or making false claims about what reputable polls are showing. After all, he is _claiming_ to know Yes, it’s disapointing. If this one thing makes you suddenly not like McCain, then I don’t see how you could like any pol. I’d be surprised if there was any Senator who hasn’t made this kind of mistake if they’ve been interviewed as often as McCain. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/59 "2006-08-21T15:49:08Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] XT would like to change the subject to the insincerity of McCain’s critics. Good luck with that. [/QUOTE] Would he? Interesting. And here I thought he was only pointing it out, not changing the subject to it. Since he also talked about the subject at hand. YMMV there though 'luci. I think YOU’D like to change the subject to what XT is trying to do (in your own mind) because frankly your OP was lame. But hell, thats just MHO. -XT ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2006, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470/60 "2006-08-21T15:51:08Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] ::nitpick:: I don’t recall anyone holding the party at gunpoint. In fact I think the trogs were invited in. That makes the current situation more of a ‘hot date’ than a hijacking. ::nitpick:: [/QUOTE] You have a point there. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-and-truthiness/369470.md?page=4)