# John McCain is dead: Let's discuss his legacy **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 26, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282 "2018-08-26T00:31:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/81 "2018-08-28T17:30:17Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Casting a vote to save the signature accomplishment of the man who ended his presidential ambitions had to hurt like hell. And he came in, sick as a dog, and did it anyway. He gets points for that, in my book. Darn right. Sometimes preventing something dreadful is more critical than creating something great. He did not choose the easy way, and for that we are in his debt. Of course The Cult Of Donald thinks that proves he is a terrorist and they celebrate his death, but more reasonable people can appreciate it as a positive. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/82 "2018-08-28T18:20:52Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No, what I called ‘nonsense’ was the idea that all people who want to change the world can find a way to do so. And yet it happens. It’s a matter of degree, sure, but even helping one person is still changing the world. Most of us indeed do what we can. > [@](#): > > You then changed to arguing that people in McCain’s position should be able to change the world. That was not a change. Those with greater abilities and powers behind them are indeed capable of accomplishing greater things. How is that a point of contention? > [@](#): > > You even later acknowledge that most senators never achieve anything of note. McCain is not particularly outstanding in this matter. But he \*could \*have been, unlike most. I think he even knew it, too. That’s what’s damning. Clear now? > [@](#): > > Am I supposed to be surprised, here? Dear lord, a politician is self-involved? Surprised, no. Disappointed, hell yes. Irritated with the disconnect between the reality of his post-POW life and political career and the adulation we’ve always seen for his integrity and character (not least by himself) etc., hell yes, that too. But not surprised; no one has said that. _I’m_ surprised you’re still having trouble with the point, but not that you’re being so dismissive about something you, tiresomely, refuse to grasp. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/83 "2018-08-28T18:26:33Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Casting a vote to save the signature accomplishment of the man who ended his presidential ambitions had to hurt like hell. It would have if he’d personalized the issue as being for or against Obama, like his non-mavericky party-before-country GOP lemming colleagues did. Yes, points for letting a basic amount of human decency rule him at the moment. > [@](#): > > And he came in, sick as a dog, and did it anyway. He gets points for that, in my book. Mazie Hirono was far sicker and came from a lot farther to do it. But a Republican gets slobbered over for occasionally showing the same decency that is a minimum at all times for Democrats, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/84 "2018-08-28T19:15:53Z")
There is a proposal to rename the Russell Senate office building to the McCain Senate office building. Russell was a very strong opponent of the 1965 Civil Rights legislation and led a filibuster against it. > **[Schumer Wants to Rename the Russell Senate Office Building For McCain. Who...](https://time.com/5379200/schumer-mccain-russell-senate/)** > > Russell was a "senator's Senator" — but also a major opponent of civil rights ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/85 "2018-08-28T19:41:47Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > There is a proposal to rename the Russell Senate office building to the McCain Senate office building. Russell was a very strong opponent of the 1965 Civil Rights legislation and led a filibuster against it. > [Who Was Richard Russell? Schumer Wants to Rename Building | TIME](http://time.com/5379200/schumer-mccain-russell-senate/) And there’s [southern GOP senators mad](http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/404018-renaming-senate-office-building-after-mccain-sparks-gop-backlash) that it might not be named after a racist any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/86 "2018-08-28T21:13:24Z")
they will probably find another DC building to name after McCain. The Pentagon is not named for anyone right? That is not likely but a possible way to honor him. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/87 "2018-08-29T03:10:42Z")
[No More Mister Nice Blog](http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2018/08/that-senate-office-building-will-never.html) argues convincingly (to me, anyway) the renaming will never happen. Steve tends to the pessimistic side but he makes a good case. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/88 "2018-08-29T04:06:40Z")
A peer group one might compare him to are the other 300 Senators who died in office. Any thoughts as to how he compares? > **[U.S. Senate: Senators Who Have Died in Office](https://www.senate.gov/senators/SenatorsDiedinOffice.htm)** > > Senators Who Have Died in Office ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/89 "2018-08-31T02:29:29Z")
Something I hadn’t known until I just read it. I remember when McCain was running for President and he deflected questions about his age by talking about how his mother was still alive. I just read that Roberta McCain is still alive at the age of 106 and will be attended her son’s funeral. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/90 "2018-08-31T10:12:54Z")
John McCain is the image the Republican Party should have been. If the party had chosen McCain as it’s first true post-Reagan leader instead of GWB, it would have been a different ball game. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/91 "2018-08-31T14:33:19Z")
[Competing candidates for President trade jokes at the 2008 Al Smith Memorial Dinner](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AljrFHhSF28). Can you imagine the joy our country would have if more of today’s politicians had the humor and charitable good spirits of these two great men? 2008 was such a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/92 "2018-08-31T16:33:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > (Insert required but vapid military worship here) > > I’d think more of the man as a Senator if he’d followed his own maxim of “Country First” when it counted just a \*little \*more often. He instead was a dependable party vote no matter what the issue. But how do you know, in whatever votes you are thinking of, that McCain wasn’t _in his own mind_ putting country first? If he was, then I can see criticizing him for his beliefs, but not in trying to make the case he was a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/93 "2018-09-01T21:53:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > John McCain is the image the Republican Party should have been. If the party had chosen McCain as it’s first true post-Reagan leader instead of GWB, it would have been a different ball game. George W Bush was a standard “handmaiden of the one-percenters” GOP pol. He would go along with whatever the major donors wanted, while pretending that’s not what he was doing. McCain, on the other hand, actually had ideas on what was good for the country, instead of simply accepting whatever the major donors said was good for the country (namely, what is good for them). He took their money but he didn’t prioritize pleasing them. This was mainly due to his coming from a military family (not common among today’s GOP) and of course his own self-identification as a military man. But whatever the cause, the result was that he didn’t fit the mold of the modern GOP—a party which exists solely to serve the top one percent, while pretending this is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/94 "2018-09-02T02:54:31Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > … > To worry about McCain’s legacy is a fool’s errand. In the end, he will have none. His accomplishments, both in office and in the military, were not such that he will be remembered in 20 years except by true wonks and in 100 years not even by those in particular. > … I agree - which is why I was surprised at the over-the-top, drawn out proceedings. Flying him hither and yon, having him lie in state, flags at half staff… Just plant him already. Does anyone know why he merited such attention? If any other of the 99 senators died tomorrow, would they be hailed similarly? I was never a big fan. Sure, there are plenty of worse Repubs. And at least at one point in his life he was a true hardass. But I disliked the hypocrisy of presenting himself as a maverick, while too often supporting reprehensible actions. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/95 "2018-09-02T22:41:21Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I agree - which is why I was surprised at the over-the-top, drawn out proceedings. Flying him hither and yon, having him lie in state, flags at half staff… Just plant him already. > > Does anyone know why he merited such attention? If any other of the 99 senators died tomorrow, would they be hailed similarly? > > I was never a big fan. Sure, there are plenty of worse Repubs. And at least at one point in his life he was a true hardass. But I disliked the hypocrisy of presenting himself as a maverick, while too often supporting reprehensible actions. If Hillary Clinton had won the Electoral College (as well as the popular vote), then McCain’s week of memorial ceremonies would have received much less attention. I don’t intend that as disrespect to McCain, but as a raw observation of the mood of Americans. We’ve had a steady diet of rank indecency for two years, now. McCain wasn’t America’s Greatest Statesman, but he _was_ a guy who didn’t prioritize getting rich/tweeting insults at all and sundry/paying off mistresses/using tariffs to express his anger that the leader of Canada is more popular than he is/sucking up to a foreign dictator, etc. etc. etc. far into the night. McCain was, to over-simplify, a _decent_ human being. Millions of Americans remembered, at his death, that we didn’t used to have to cringe when the national news came on. Millions of Americans found that they liked remembering that—and so the media, ever interested in ratings, gave them what they craved. ---
**Author:** ![poweroftheglory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@poweroftheglory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poweroftheglory)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/96 "2018-09-03T01:22:13Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If Hillary Clinton had won the Electoral College (as well as the popular vote), then McCain’s week of memorial ceremonies would have received much less attention. > > I don’t intend that as disrespect to McCain, but as a raw observation of the mood of Americans. We’ve had a steady diet of rank indecency for two years, now. McCain wasn’t America’s Greatest Statesman, but he _was_ a guy who didn’t prioritize getting rich/tweeting insults at all and sundry/paying off mistresses/using tariffs to express his anger that the leader of Canada is more popular than he is/sucking up to a foreign dictator, etc. etc. etc. far into the night. > > McCain was, to over-simplify, a _decent_ human being. > > Millions of Americans remembered, at his death, that we didn’t used to have to cringe when the national news came on. Millions of Americans found that they liked remembering that—and so the media, ever interested in ratings, gave them what they craved. There does seem to be a cohort of liberals that value civility more than human lives. Like you can push policy that destroys the lives of millions, but as long as you are not too rude to the press liberals will fawn all over you. I’m sorry, you cannot be a decent human being and a war monger at the same time. It’s one thing to support military action reluctantly, but McCain never shied from pushing war no matter the occasion “Bomb bomb bomb Iran.” And also, it is possible to be against Trump and still be a reprehensible human being. Has Liberalism always been this shallow and I’ve been ignorant to it or did did Liberals allow Trump to steal their common sense? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/97 "2018-09-03T01:38:45Z")
> [@poweroftheglory](#): > > There does seem to be a cohort of liberals that value civility more than human lives. Like you can push policy that destroys the lives of millions, but as long as you are not too rude to the press liberals will fawn all over you. I’m sorry, you cannot be a decent human being and a war monger at the same time. It’s one thing to support military action reluctantly, but McCain never shied from pushing war no matter the occasion “Bomb bomb bomb Iran.” And also, it is possible to be against Trump and still be a reprehensible human being. > > Has Liberalism always been this shallow and I’ve been ignorant to it or did did Liberals allow Trump to steal their common sense? There seems to be a misunderstanding that liberals who say nice things about McCain are doing so because they believe he was a liberal. That is not the case (at least not for any liberals or progressives that I know). Of course McCain was a conservative; moreover he was a conservative who tended to believe that US military action was the right course of action for many situations, a view with which most progressives and even many conservatives take issue. Progressives who have lauded McCain in recent days do not do so because we believe McCain was correct about going to war in Iraq. Rather, we do so because of the differences McCain exhibited not just when compared with Trump, but when compared with other Republicans. My own view of this is that current Republican leaders are appallingly slavish and submissive to the major donors of cash to their re-election funds. McCain differed by having strong views that did not always line up with the views of the one-percenters who own the GOP Congress. On numerous occasions—such as his ‘nay’ vote on ending Obamacare—he took positions that the major GOP donors deplored. Some of us find this to be worth noting and commending. In your post quoted above, you appear to equate “civility” with being not “too rude to the press,” which I find odd. I don’t think many liberals or progressives would agree with that. When we speak of McCain’s civility, we are thinking of his ability to get along with members of a party not his own—again, a very rare quality among today’s rabidly-partisan politicians. Politeness or rudeness to the press doesn’t really enter into that assessment. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/98 "2018-09-03T02:24:23Z")
Nicely said **Sherrerd**. Trump managed to piss even the American Legion for how he was treating the memory of McCain, A president should not have to be shamed into doing the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/99 "2018-09-03T04:57:11Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > McCain was, to over-simplify, a _decent_ human being. If you think this is true, it’s because our standards are _really fucking low_. A decent human being would not have been a cheerleader for the Iraq war through 2018. A decent human being would not be a cheerleader for war with Iran even after seeing the results of Iraq. A decent human being would not enable or encourage Mcconnell’s corruption of the supreme court. A decent human being, _especially_ one who, as I keep hearing in fawning fucking reports, “cared about washington institutions”, would not enable or encourage _Betsy fucking DeVos_. A decent human being would not be part of Trump’s republican party. Period. > [@](#): > > Rather, we do so because of the differences McCain exhibited not just when compared with Trump, but when compared with other Republicans. This is such a disturbingly low bar, it’s actually kind of despicable how _badly_ McCain fails at clearing it. Oh, he wasn’t a _total_ party line republican? He only voted party line 83% of the time? What makes McCain better than Collins? Or Murkowski? Or Cotton? Or basically any rank-and-file republican? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2018, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282/100 "2018-09-03T06:46:18Z")
If you’re going to judge morality by whether you agree or disagree with his positions, I can’t help you. Morality is in the process of HOW he came to his decisions. John McCain voted for the Iraq war because he felt it was necessary. John Kerry and John Edwards voted for the Iraq war because they thought it was in their political interests and they both planned to begin a run for the Presidency in a few months. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-mccain-is-dead-lets-discuss-his-legacy/820282.md?page=6)