# John Oliver Nov 9/25 on "felony murder" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745 "2025-11-10T21:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/181 "2025-11-14T01:14:57Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, then the question becomes: **Why are you basing your (confidently and categorically expressed) assessment of whether John Oliver has “left out a vital detail” or “ignored those facts” or “lies by omission” merely on partial summaries of John Oliver’s remarks by some third party, instead of taking the trouble to find out what John Oliver actually said?** Still, rather than include those critical details about those two cases, he left them as an afterthought. > [@Kimstu](#): > > THE GUARDIAN SHAMEFULLY FAILED TO FACT-CHECK HIM!!” Did the Guardian include either fact in their story? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope. There **is** somebody in this discussion who didn’t do due diligence on the fact-checking before overconfidently jumping to an unwarranted conclusion, but it’s not John Oliver, and it’s not the _Guardian_, and it’s not the OP. (Hint: his username begins with **D**.) So, you mean rather than work from the OP and other messages posted here- plus the links provided, we have to fully research anything before commenting? I doubt that. I notice two posters here who didnt research and find out that infor before posting. > [@wolfpup](#): > > For the second or third time, the show and this discussion is about the **felony murder** law. The fact that in some cases the charge was reversed on appeal or in other cases penalties reduced on appeal is irrelevant to a discussion of the **felony murder** law. Yes, it is- IF you- as the OP - are going to use two apparently horrible examples of a travesty of justice- without informing us that in both of those two cases- justice eventually prevailed. If you want to show that a law is bad, normally examples are given- and both your examples turned out not to show that at all. Not to mention, many nations would convict most of those convicted in the USA of felony murder would be convicted of being an accessory to murder with the same sentence. **And wait- you mean you watched the episode, and thus knew that those two ‘travesties of justice” had been fixed by a commutation and an Appeal which overturned the sentence- yet you chose to use those two examples without mentioning those critical facts?** Note that three US states have no such law, and several- California, Delaware, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, and Vermont- which require a defendant to be one of the major participants in the crime and also act with reckless indifference to human life to be convicted of felony murder. So that is ten states which have either gotten rid of or modified the law. Did anyone know that? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/182 "2025-11-14T01:29:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not to mention, many nations would convict most of those convicted in the USA of felony murder would be convicted of being an accessory to murder with the same sentence. Wrong. As previously described. That this is wrong was the whole damn point of Oliver’s report on the issue. Your insistence that other countries are just the same doesn’t change the facts. Other countries abandoned this travesty of justice decades ago, if they ever had it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/183 "2025-11-14T01:45:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But they did know they were going to commit a felony- they had planned on it. So do all felonies in the US carry a life sentence, like murder does? Or do different felonies carry different penalties, tied to the mental state of the accused. This is starting to sound like felonies at common law in England, that all carried a death sentence, because they’re felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/184 "2025-11-14T01:58:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, “Felony Murder” is but as i cited before, being an accessory to murder can get you a life sentence, even in Canada. To be convicted of a murder related offence, you have to have the mens rea that covers murder. Driving a guy in a stolen car without any idea that the guy will commit a murder at the destination is not sufficient for an accessory conviction, or for a party to the offence conviction. Plus, accessory after the fact to murder gets a lighter sentence than murder; a maximum of life, but no minimum, and no automatic restriction on parole, unlike 1st and 2nd degree murder, where there is no eligibility for parole for 25 years (1st) or between 10 and 25 (2nd). The offence of after the fact accessory recognises that it’s not the same as murder, and the sentence is lighter accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/185 "2025-11-14T02:04:34Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > For the 3rd Time, Castle Doctrine is not the same as general “stand your ground” laws! It is a specialized set of circumstances. I don’t know how to make this more clear to you. Please read the Wikipedia article I linked to above, particularly the section on the status of the doctrine outside the U.S. Oh what the heck, here it is again: [Castle doctrine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine) The Wikipedia article is incorrect, at least for Canada. Castle Doctrine in Canada is cited by the SCC in cases involving searches of private property by state agents; that’s how the quotation from Pitt that I gave earlier applies. The Supreme Court does not use the concept of Castle doctrine in its analysis of the Criminal Code provisions relating to self-defence. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/186 "2025-11-14T02:35:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, you mean rather than work from the OP and other messages posted here- plus the links provided, we have to fully research anything before commenting? Well, if you’re not just commenting specifically on the posts and links directly available here, but instead are **voluntarily extrapolating from them to jump to a conclusion about the broader context of that material** … …then yup, it is indeed on you to research that broader context, so that you know what you’re talking about when you make that claim. (But only if you don’t want to risk looking silly by being wrong about the conclusion you jumped to, of course. Free country and all that.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/187 "2025-11-14T02:47:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Note that three US states have no such law, and several- California, Delaware, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Dakota, and Vermont- which require a defendant to be one of the major participants in the crime and also act with reckless indifference to human life to be convicted of felony murder. So that is ten states which have either gotten rid of or modified the law. For completeness, the three that abolished it are: It has been abolished by [Hawaii](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii), [Kentucky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky), and [Michigan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan).[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_and_the_death_penalty_in_the_United_States#cite_note-:2-5) Collectively, that includes a decent fraction of the states I’d want to live in. Probably not a coincidence. It’s still an incredibly shitty law in the States where it’s unbridled. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/188 "2025-11-14T03:02:52Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So do all felonies in the US carry a life sentence, like murder does? Nope, just the ones that result in death. Which is really something that should give you pause before you commit a felony that could result in someone being killed. I agree that the felony murder method is inferior to charging people with accessory to murder or a similar charge. But I also think that the core idea - that if you choose to participate in a felony and this results in someone’s death then you should face more serious charges even if you weren’t directly responsible for the killing - is solid. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/189 "2025-11-14T03:07:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I agree that the felony murder method is inferior to charging people with accessory to murder or a similar charge. But I also think that the core idea - that if you choose to participate in a felony and this results in someone’s death then you should face more serious charges even if you weren’t directly responsible for the killing - is solid. Does it give you pause that virtually no other civilized country in the world endorses a similar “solid” dogma? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/190 "2025-11-14T03:10:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Does it give you pause that virtually no other civilized country in the world endorses a similar “solid” dogma?. It would if it were true. But while other countries don’t have a felony murder rule, they most certainly DO charge people in situations like “the getaway driver who says he didn’t know the robber had a real gun” with accessory to murder, which as I said above was my preferred solution. For example, Oliver’s home country has “Unlawful Act” or “Constructive” Manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/191 "2025-11-14T03:16:53Z")
But as I also said above, the requirements for conviction, and the burden of proof thereof, are much higher than for the “felony murder” laws in US states which, in fact, are explicitly endorsed by self-described “crime-fighting” conservatives precisely because they make convictions so much easier. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/192 "2025-11-14T03:18:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But as I also said above, the requirements for conviction, and the burden of proof thereof, are much higher than for the “felony murder” laws in US states which, in fact, are explicitly endorsed by self-described “crime-fighting” conservatives precisely because they make convictions so much easier I agree. That would be why I said that I support the _core idea_ of _charging someone more harshly if their felony resulted in death_ but that I _preferred other models of accomplishing this._ The UK’s model is a subtype of involuntary manslaughter with a maximum penalty of life in prison. So unless you think that the UK isn’t “civilized”, you’re incorrect when you say that > [@wolfpup](#): > > virtually no other civilized country in the world endorses a similar “solid” dogma ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/193 "2025-11-14T05:19:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The UK’s model is a subtype of involuntary manslaughter with a maximum penalty of life in prison. So unless you think that the UK isn’t “civilized”, you’re incorrect when you say that > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > virtually no other civilized country in the world endorses a similar “solid” dogma Am I? > International and foreign laws and practices can help to shape U.S. laws. A global perspective on the “evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society” has at times informed understandings of the Eighth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which bars cruel and unusual punishment and calls for proportionality in sentencing. **Global trends reveal that U.S. felony murder laws are anomalous and that the extreme sentences that they often impose are cruel and unusual.** > > Foreign jurisdictions increasingly recognize felony murder laws as violating the fundamental principles of justice and of proportionality. The United Kingdom, where the felony murder rule originated and subsequently spread to other Commonwealth countries and the United States, abolished felony murder starting as early as 1957. Other countries followed suit in the 1960s, including the Republic of Ireland, Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, and Tuvalu. In 1990, the Canadian Supreme Court also eliminated felony murder, underscoring “the principle of fundamental justice that subjective foresight of death is required before a conviction for murder can be sustained,” which, in the Court’s opinion, is necessary to “maintain a proportionality between the stigma and punishment attached to a murder conviction and the moral blameworthiness of the offender.” The above is from Section II of this study: > **[Felony-Murder-An-On-Ramp-for-Extreme-Sentencing.pdf](https://www.sentencingproject.org/app/uploads/2023/10/Felony-Murder-An-On-Ramp-for-Extreme-Sentencing.pdf)** > > 3.15 MB ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/194 "2025-11-14T07:51:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It would if it were true. But while other countries don’t have a felony murder rule, they most certainly DO charge people in situations like “the getaway driver who says he didn’t know the robber had a real gun” with accessory to murder, which as I said above was my preferred solution. In Canada, a person is only guilty of being a party to a murder if they had the mens rea to commit murder, namely a subjective intention / foresight to kill. If they were participating in an unlawful act, such as a robbery, without knowing that the other person intended to kill, they may be guilty of manslaughter, but not murder. So no, the driver of a car who didn’t know that the robber had a real gun, would not be guilty of murder. If the Crown does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they had the requisite mens rea, it’s manslaughter. > **[R. v. Jackson - SCC Cases](https://decisions.scc-csc.ca/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/1091/index.do)** I’m not in a position to say how other countries would deal with this issue, so I can’t share your confident assertion that most other countries would charge with accessory to murder. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/195 "2025-11-14T08:29:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The UK’s model is a subtype of involuntary manslaughter with a maximum penalty of life in prison. Just pointing to the maximum sentence does not establish that the law in England & Wales treats manslaughter the same as murder. The two sentencing regimes recognise different moral culpability between murder and manslaughter. In England & Wales, there is a clear distinction in sentence between manslaughter and murder. Both carry a maximum life sentence, but murder carries a minimum time of imprisonment before the accused can be considered for parole (commonly called the tariff; usually a minimum range of 15 to 30 years, but can be whole life). Although life is the maximum sentence for manslaughter, there is no minimum sentence. An accused could get imprisonment, a suspended sentence, or a community sentence. > **[final-manslaughter-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf](https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/media/hyaeiuyd/final-manslaughter-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf)** > > 177.45 KB > **[final-murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf](https://sentencingcouncil.org.uk/media/zkjjplgn/final-murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf)** > > 186.37 KB Also, there is no uniform criminal law in the UK. Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own criminal law. The info I’ve given is the law in England & Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/196 "2025-11-14T13:11:20Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In Canada, a person is only guilty of being a party to a murder if they had the mens rea to commit murder, namely a subjective intention / foresight to kill. If they were participating in an unlawful act, such as a robbery, without knowing that the other person intended to kill, they may be guilty of manslaughter, but not murder. And the maximum penalty for manslaughter in Canada is… Life in prison. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So no, the driver of a car who didn’t know that the robber had a real gun, would not be guilty of murder. Cool. Good thing I didn’t say anything about wanting people in that situation to be charged with murder specifically: > [@Babale](#): > > I support the _core idea_ of _charging someone more harshly if their felony resulted in death_ but that I _preferred other models of accomplishing this._ Burglary plus Manslaughter is a harsher charge than Burglary alone, so sounds like Canada is doing exactly what I said I supported. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > so I can’t share your confident assertion that most other countries would charge with accessory to murder. no, but they _would_ charge you with Manslaughter, which is perfectly aligned with my suggestion. Another option would be Reckless Endangerment or a similar charge. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Just pointing to the maximum sentence does not establish that the law in England & Wales treats manslaughter the same as murder. The two sentencing regimes recognise different moral culpability between murder and manslaughter. What on Earth are you talking about? I agree, England treats murder and manslaughter differently. What is your point? I never said murder and manslaughter were identical. What I said, for the third time now, is that I agree with the core idea of charging someone more harshly if while committing a felony the actions they take part in end up causing the death of someone, whether an innocent or a member of their felony committing party - even if they aren’t _directly_ responsible for the death. And by the way England has the principle of “Joint Criminal Enterprise” which is very similar to Felony Murder except that it does require that the death be “foreseeable” which the US law does not require. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/197 "2025-11-14T13:23:04Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > And why listen to John Oliver about US law anyway? Is he _right_ on the facts, or is he _wrong_ on the facts, and … how do you know (ie, please cite your source(s))? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/198 "2025-11-14T13:41:15Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What is your point? I never said murder and manslaughter were identical. Felony murder isn’t felony manslaughter. If it were, it wouldn’t be such a horrible idea. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/199 "2025-11-14T13:43:25Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I thought you were going to say that “justice turned on it’s head” was the _homeowner_ being guilty of shooting an intruder! To me, the point was that the law was intended to protect victims (the homeowner in this case) but was used in court to actually convict the dead teen’s fellow criminals. The “justice” system (note the air quotes) twisted the law to its own purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/200 "2025-11-14T14:01:06Z")
In far too many places the law is politicized, and “Justice” and “Tough on crime” are synonyms come election time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=11)