# John Oliver Nov 9/25 on "felony murder" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745 "2025-11-10T21:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/201 "2025-11-14T14:53:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Justice” and “Tough on crime” are synonyms come election time. Yeah I think this is the reason these laws still exist. They absolutely unjust and a clearly a travesty, but they are an injustice that happens to felons. Politically that’s a group it’s not going to win you any supporters if you help Of course now we have a felon for POTUS you’d think that might change but we all know it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/202 "2025-11-14T20:56:38Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Wrong. As previously described. That this is wrong was the whole damn point of Oliver’s report on the issue. Your insistence that other countries are just the same doesn’t change the facts. Other countries abandoned this travesty of justice decades ago, if they ever had it in the first place. I wasnt claiming other nations had “felony murder’ but many do have accessory to murder, with similar penalties. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > So do all felonies in the US carry a life sentence, like murder does? Nope. and in fact in one of the examples, the Court threw out the Murder and instated only Burglary- _While the state’s highest court overturned the felony murder convictions, the justices ruled that they’re guilty of burglary, a Class B felony punishable by six to 20 years in prison._ > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Plus, accessory after the fact to murder gets a lighter sentence than murder; a maximum of life, But still, it could be a Life sentence. > [@Babale](#): > > I agree that the felony murder method is inferior to charging people with accessory to murder or a similar charge. But I also think that the core idea - that if you choose to participate in a felony and this results in someone’s death then you should face more serious charges even if you weren’t directly responsible for the killing - is solid. Yes, i agree. Look, yes, of the three examples given, one still is carrying a sentence that seems to me to be unfair (altho it is currently under appeal). You can find a travesty of justice somewhere with pretty much any felony. The examples given do not convince me that “Felony Murder” is all that evil and wrong, altho I do prefer the way California does it. > [@Babale](#): > > It would if it were true. But while other countries don’t have a felony murder rule, they most certainly DO charge people in situations like “the getaway driver who says he didn’t know the robber had a real gun” with accessory to murder, which as I said above was my preferred solution. > > For example, Oliver’s home country has “Unlawful Act” or “Constructive” Manslaughter, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison. Yeah even though not called “Felony Murder” it is similar, altho maybe not open to the abuses seen in the one remaining example. > [@Babale](#): > > I agree. That would be why I said that I support the _core idea_ of _charging someone more harshly if their felony resulted in death_ but that I _preferred other models of accomplishing this._ > > The UK’s model is a subtype of involuntary manslaughter with a maximum penalty of life in prison. So unless you think that the UK isn’t “civilized”, you’re incorrect when you say that Right. > [@wolfpup](#): > > **Global trends reveal that U.S. felony murder laws are anomalous and that the extreme sentences that they often impose are cruel and unusual.** You keep arguing that no other nation has the exact charge “Felony Murder” and we all agree that such charges are rare amoung nations. But then you said- > [@wolfpup](#): > > virtually no other civilized country in the world endorses a similar “solid” dogma And like we have said= **Accessory to Murder is similar,** altho not as onerous. I agree that the way California handles it would be the better way to handle this. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > In Canada, a person is only guilty of being a party to a murder if they had the mens rea to commit murder, namely a subjective intention / foresight to kill. If they were participating in an unlawful act, such as a robbery, without knowing that the other person intended to kill, they may be guilty of manslaughter, but not murder. What is the max sentence for manslaughter? Life right? In the USA Felony Murder is not an automatic life sentence either- [https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/felony-murder/](https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/felony-murder/) _Almost every state in the United States has a felony murder rule, and federal law recognizes the felony murder rule, as well. In most states, felony murder is categorized as a first-degree murder and can result in sentencing from several years to a life imprisonment. In almost half of these states, felony murder is considered a capital offense, which means that the death penalty is available. However, the Supreme Court has imposed additional restrictions on states that seek to impose the death penalty for a felony murder. In [Enmund v. Florida](http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/458/782/), the Supreme Court held that the death penalty cannot be imposed on a defendant who had only a minor role in the underlying felony, such as any individuals who did not participate in the killing, or did not intend to kill during the felony._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/203 "2025-11-14T20:58:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In far too many places the law is politicized, and “Justice” and “Tough on crime” are synonyms come election time. This is true, but not just in the USA- but we are the best (or is that worst?) example of that. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2025, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/204 "2025-11-15T18:58:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And like we have said= **Accessory to Murder is similar,** That’s like saying Thailand’s Lèse-majesté laws are reasonable because other counties have laws that penalize threatening speech. It’s similar in the sense that other countries recognize you can share some culpability with a murderer if you participate in the murder or planning of it, even if you didn’t actually stab or shoot the victim. It’s not comparable in terms of how unjust and extreme felony murder is. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/205 "2025-11-15T19:03:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In the USA Felony Murder is not an automatic life sentence either But it is _murder_. It’s not a separate crime like attempted murder, manslaughter or accessory to murder, which are serious crimes but less severe than murder. Felony murder is essentially saying a felon who did not commit murder, or anything like it, is a murderer, that’s inherently unjust. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2025, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/206 "2025-11-15T20:46:05Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > But it is _murder_. It’s not a separate crime like attempted murder, manslaughter or accessory to murder, which are serious crimes but less severe than murder. Felony murder sentences can- as i cited before- _felony murder is categorized as a first-degree murder and can result in sentencing from several years to a life imprisonment._ And accessory to murder can lead to a Life Sentence, as shown before. Attempted Murder? [Attempted Murder: Laws, Penalties, and Defenses](https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/crime-penalties/charged-attempted-murder.htm#:%5C~:text=Penalties%20for%20Attempted%20Murder%20in,as%2020%20or%2025%20years) . _For attempted first-degree murder, many states impose a life sentence and might include a mandatory minimum term, such as 20 or 25 years._ Manslaughter- depending on the state- can have a sentence of up to 30 years. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Felony murder is essentially saying a felon who did not commit murder, or anything like it, is a murderer, that’s inherently unjust. The three examples given are outliers. Usually felony murder occurs when two guys commit a robbery, and one of them kills a victim. I think that the accomplice should face some pretty severe penalties. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2025, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/207 "2025-11-16T05:11:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > felony murder is categorized as a first-degree murder Exactly! That one sentence sums up the gross injustice inherent in felony murder. It’s classifying something that is not just not murder, but not even manslaughter or accessory to murder (both of which are far harder to prove than felony murder) as first degree murder. The most heinous kind of murder under the law and pretty much the most serious crime it is possible to commit. > [@DrDeth](#): > > The three examples given are outliers. Usually felony murder occurs when two guys commit a robbery, and one of them kills a victim That is the worst argument for an unjust law. I’m sure it’s supporters would argue that Thailand’s lèse-majesté law (that makes it a serious criminal offense to criticize the king) is _usually_ only used in cases where the accused was actually planning to assassinate the king. Even if that were true it would not make the law less unjust or less of a travesty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2025, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/208 "2025-11-16T17:51:51Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m not in a position to say how other countries would deal with this issue, so I can’t share your confident assertion that most other countries would charge with accessory to murder. AFAIK, it’d be the same in South Africa - no intent (_[dolus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_criminal_law#Intention)_), no murder charges. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/209 "2025-11-16T20:55:13Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > That is the worst argument for an unjust law. However, the three examples given by Oliver are terrible choices for showing the laws are unjust. One had his sentence commuted, another had their sentence overturned by the courts, and the third is up for appeal- true that last is still a solid maybe. But if those are the very best examples people can come up with- that is scant evidence the law is unjust. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2025, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/210 "2025-11-16T21:08:08Z")
If a law is bad and is therefore overturned on appeal all the time, it’s still a bad law. That actually kind of confirms it’s a bad law. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2025, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/211 "2025-11-16T21:18:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > If a law is bad and is therefore overturned on appeal all the time, it’s still a bad law. Just the once, as far as the examples go. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2025, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/212 "2025-11-17T02:11:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One had his sentence commuted, That’s an even worse argument! Having his sentence commuted says literally as much about the injustice of the law as if he’d tunnelled out of prison and spent the rest of his days in luxury as a fugitive in Brazil [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=10)