# John Oliver Nov 9/25 on "felony murder" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745 "2025-11-10T21:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/81 "2025-11-11T18:12:38Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > So are we thinking the husband below should get charged with felony murder for the killing of his wife? Did she enter the house with the intent to commit a felony? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/82 "2025-11-11T18:13:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If it did, there could never be a search warrant issued for dwelling places That was the original meaning of the term. William Pitt when he said “the wind and rain may come in but the king of England may not” he was specifically talk about the right of the home own to exclude agents of the crown (specifically cider tax inspectors). Obviously it was never an absolute right that universally applied to all agents is the crown in all circumstances, but that was the original meaning. It had grown to mean a right to use reasonable force to exclude any unwanted trespassers, not just agents of the crown, from your home in English common law, before it was used that way in America. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/83 "2025-11-11T18:13:08Z")
I don’t follow- what crime was the husband particpating in? As far as I can tell, the housekeeper and her husband didn’t commit any crime. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/84 "2025-11-11T18:17:19Z")
He and his wife recklessly caused the homeowner to fear for his life by trespassing and attempting to break in I suppose. I’m not the lawyer here, but I’m sure something similar will be used. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/85 "2025-11-11T18:26:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Which is what is meant by “stand your ground”. Under English law (as in most of the US) you have the right stand your ground when in a threatening situation l, only _in your home_. Subsection 76(3) and (6A) of the English statute, that you referred to, states that whether a retreat was reasonable is a factor the English court must consider in deciding if self-defence is available and the use of force was reasonable. Is that the same as in “stand your ground” laws in the US? Is it the case under “stand your ground” laws that the US court is required to consider the reasonableness of retreat before allowing deadly force as a defence? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/86 "2025-11-11T18:30:14Z")
I’m pretty sure that “conduct” is not meant to apply to the underlying crime (like burglary) but rather to deadly ohysical force which is defined in the law as as > “Deadly physical force” means physical force which, under the > circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death > or other serious physical injury. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/87 "2025-11-11T18:35:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > After they kill torture or kill someone? And you need to catch them first. Yes! That’s how laws work in democratic countries. If someone commits a crime, you collect evidence then you arrest them, then try them in front of jury or their peers, and then punish them in accordance with the law **for the crime they’ve been found guilty of** In a just country you don’t punish them for some other much worse crime that they haven’t committed! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/88 "2025-11-11T18:39:41Z")
Like murder, when they didn’t have subjective foreseeability that a killing would result. Agreed, that’s how just countries operate. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/89 "2025-11-11T18:41:30Z")
That is insane. Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/90 "2025-11-11T18:47:35Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > So are we thinking the husband below should get charged with felony murder for the killing of his wife? What felony was he committing when she was killed, pray tell? > [@Zoobi](#): > > I am sure the homeowner was fearful for his life and his family’s life. Would a _reasonable person_ have been? That’s the legal standard, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/91 "2025-11-11T18:48:24Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > He and his wife recklessly caused the homeowner to fear for his life by trespassing and attempting to break in I suppose Did you link the wrong story? The couple in the story you linked weren’t trespassing nor were they attempting to break in. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/92 "2025-11-11T18:48:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > a retreat was reasonable is a factor the English court must consider in deciding if self-defence is available and the use of force was reasonable. Though only “In a case other than a householder case” so actually this was closer to the crazy US “stand your ground” laws as it weakens the duty the retreat outside the home. iIRC this was the tories responding to some tabloid clamour or other, and trying to placate the gammons. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Is it the case under “stand your ground” laws that the US court is required to consider the reasonableness of retreat before allowing deadly force as a defence? There are many different laws, in many different US jurisdictions. But fundamentally the right to stand your ground is the same in the US and UK. You have no duty to retreat in your home, you can stand your ground there (but not if you feel threatened randomly walking down the street) ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/93 "2025-11-11T19:00:05Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Would a _reasonable person_ have been? That’s the legal standard, of course. I’m quite sure the attorneys will argue that it’s indeed the case. And if they win, which is very strong possibility, then husband should be charged no? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/94 "2025-11-11T19:05:41Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > I’m quite sure the attorneys will argue that it’s indeed the case. And if they win, which is very strong possibility, then husband should be charged no? I can’t figure out who in this thread you think you’re arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/95 "2025-11-11T19:12:02Z")
This isn’t the debate forum, so I’m just thinking out loud. I think three tragedy I linked to is a possibly interesting nexus between the topic of Felony Murder and the Castle Doctrine that can occasionally lead to the former for accomplices. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/96 "2025-11-11T19:17:01Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Would a _reasonable person_ have been? That’s the legal standard, of course. > > I’m quite sure the attorneys will argue that it’s indeed the case. And if they win, which is very strong possibility, You think there’s a very strong possibility that they will win a self defense case where they shot someone who was at their door who showed no sign of having attempted to break in? That seems pretty ridiculous to me. That’s an exceedingly spurious self defense claim that should fail and, in my non professional opinion, very likely will. > [@Zoobi](#): > > And if they win, which is very strong possibility, then husband should be charged no? Even if they _did_ win, that would mean that the shooter had a reasonable fear for their life (I really don’t see that happening but let’s pretend), but not that the person who was shot or her husband were committing a felony, which is necessary for felony murder. What felony do you think they would be guilty of? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/97 "2025-11-11T19:19:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You think there’s a very strong possibility that they will win a self defense case where they shot someone who was at their door who showed no sign of having attempted to break in? It sounded like they were trying to unlock the door with the wrong key. Is it crazy to believe they thought someone was trying to pick the lock? That being said, I would think the situation would not be dangerous for the homeowner until the “intruders” actually gained entry. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/98 "2025-11-11T19:21:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is it crazy to believe they thought someone was trying to pick the lock? No, it isn’t; but someone starting to try to pick a lock isn’t an immediate threat to you the way that an unknown person standing inside your house after already having broken in is. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/99 "2025-11-11T19:21:44Z")
If only I said > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I would think the situation would not be dangerous for the homeowner until the “intruders” actually gained entry. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/100 "2025-11-11T19:23:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > If only I said [self quote snipped] I didn’t say or imply that you thought it was a threat. I just agreed with you that it’s not crazy to believe that they were picking a lock, and gave my own reasoning as to why it wouldn’t matter for self defense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=6)