# John Oliver Nov 9/25 on "felony murder" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745 "2025-11-10T21:07:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/101 "2025-11-11T19:41:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What felony do you think they would be guilty of? Attempted Residential Entry? I’m sure questions about citizenship will be brought up as well (he and a family are almost certainly going to get deported). The lawyer will try what they need to. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/102 "2025-11-11T19:50:18Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > Attempted Residential Entry? Does that require intent? I.e. you need to know you do not have permission to enter the premises? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/103 "2025-11-11T19:51:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Something many people miss- the sense of violation, _the fact you are no longer safe in your own home._ Many victims experience PTSD, insomnia, a sense of helplessness. Again, speaking as a victim of a home invasion burglary, all of that would be absolutely trivial compared to the PTSD I’d have experienced if I had killed a kid over my Nintendo Wii. I would have been legally justified doing so. But not morally. As it is that burglary was barely in the top 3 worse things that happened to me in 2010 (though that was an extremely crappy year for me) ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/104 "2025-11-11T19:53:39Z")
[https://law.justia.com/codes/indiana/title-35/article-43/chapter-2/section-35-43-2-1-5/](https://law.justia.com/codes/indiana/title-35/article-43/chapter-2/section-35-43-2-1-5/) > Sec. 1.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally breaks and enters the dwelling of another person commits residential entry, a Level 6 felony. You are probably right that intent is needed and that would be hard to prove. So maybe he caught a break? I can’t be sure cuz I’m not a lawyer though. There might be other things they can try to charge him with. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/105 "2025-11-11T19:58:16Z")
Aaaaand back to Felony Murder, I think there’s two things, as they apply in states such as Florida with harsh penalties and limited mitigation. First, pending updates of the legislation, there is NO differentiation between degree of involvement and the sentence. Not to mention the ambition of many prosecutors in search of a slam dunk. Thus my linking of the proposed amendment to cap (not set, but _cap_) the limits. The other thing, and one that probably explains the police/prosecutor reluctance to move it forward, is that it’s a nice heavy legal bludgeon to force a plea deal and/or get cooperation out of someone only tangentially involved. Per the Ryan Holle case, he was offered a plea deal of 10 years (which TO ME feels incredibly harsh) and refused, probably expecting to win on common sense… and ended up with 25 prior to the intercession. I _generally_ disagree with our legal system’s tendency to throw everything at a person, with horrible scary names and long terms in jail, then let them plea down because the alternative is a lot worse, especially if you can’t afford to have great lawyers and spend the time and money on appeals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/106 "2025-11-11T20:08:34Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > In a just country you don’t punish them for some other much worse crime that they haven’t committed! What that guy who lent his car did is called “accessory” to a felony, which is a felony. And someone died during that felony, and that victim would not have died had he not left his car to the perps, knowing they were going to commit a felony. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Like murder, when they didn’t have subjective foreseeability that a killing would result. But they did know they were going to commit a felony- they had planned on it. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Again, speaking as a victim of a home invasion burglary, all of that would be absolutely trivial compared to the PTSD I’d have experienced if I had killed a kid over my Nintendo Wii. If, indeed you knew for sure, all he was going to do was steal a game, then yes, But did you know he wasnt carrying a gun? That he didnt have lethal intent? Now, sure, if you, the wife and the kids, can barricade in a bedroom, and only shoot if the burglar enters that room- that would be a good plan, > [@ParallelLines](#): > > forward, is that it’s a nice heavy legal bludgeon to force a plea deal and/or get cooperation out of someone only tangentially involved. Per the Ryan Holle case, he was offered a plea deal of 10 years (which TO ME feels incredibly harsh) and refused, probably expecting to win on common sense… and ended up with 25 prior to the intercession. 10 years out in five? If he knew they were going to commit a felony, and that they couldnt commit that felony without his car? And someone died due to that felony? 10 years isnt that harsh. And if he had agreed to testify against them- then the sentence would have been even less. I agree with the Governor in Commuting his sentence, but if he had done 5 years (with good behavior) I wouldnt thyank that was too out of line. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/107 "2025-11-11T20:22:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If, indeed you knew for sure, all he was going to do was steal a game, then yes, I mean he stole a bunch of stuff not just the Wii. But still, yes I had no idea at the time whether he was going to kill me or not. But the same is true for the creepy guy walking behind me down the street at night. The legal system says it’s ok to kill one but not the other. But morally I’d have been responsible for killing a kid (he was probably no older than 20) over my Nintendo Wii. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/108 "2025-11-11T20:22:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What that guy who lent his car did is called “accessory” to a felony, which is a felony Yup and has (very severe) penalties. But it’s not murder. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/109 "2025-11-11T20:23:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > 10 years out in five? If he knew they were going to commit a felony, and that they couldnt commit that felony without his car? And someone died due to that felony? 10 years isnt that harsh. And if he had agreed to testify against them- then the sentence would have been even less. I agree with the Governor in Commuting his sentence, but if he had done 5 years (with good behavior) I wouldnt thyank that was too out of line. With the limited reporting we have access too (a huge fudge factor) he indicates that he didn’t think they were serious in their statement. Now, of course, he would have reason to lie, and I don’t have the evidence to determine his veracity. If he’s telling the truth, then yes, I feel 10 years (5 w/good behavior) is harsh. If he’s fudging the truth, and felt no problem lending them a vehicle for a non-violent B&E then 10 years is more reasonable. But that doesn’t mean a cap isn’t a good option depending on degree of involvement isn’t a bad idea, nor that prosecutors are going to use the risks of a high sentence to intimidate less guilty (or heck, fully innocent!) individuals into taking a plea deal. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/110 "2025-11-11T20:32:48Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > Attempted Residential Entry Never heard of it, but apparently it’s analogous to what we call Burglary here in California. From a law blog that came up when I searched the term: > [@](#): > > Key Elements of Residential Entry > To secure a conviction for residential entry, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that: > > The defendant knowingly or intentionally. > > Broke and entered. > > The dwelling of another person. > > Each of these elements must be established for the charge to hold. The term “dwelling” refers to a place where someone lives, and “breaking” can involve even minimal force, such as opening an unlocked door. > **[Residential Entry Charge | Criminal Defense Attorney | Gibson Law](https://www.bbgibson.com/blog/residential-entry-charges-and-defenses-in-indiana)** > > Facing a residential entry charge in Indiana? Learn about potential defenses including mistake of fact and explore how intoxication might be relevant. So the prosecution would need to show beyond all reasonable doubt that they were lying about thinking it was the wrong house for felony murder to apply. I don’t find that likely. > [@Zoobi](#): > > sure questions about citizenship will be brought up as well If they were, the prosecution should object as this seems totally irrelevant? How is the immigration status of the victim relevant to the defense’s case here? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/111 "2025-11-11T20:34:30Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > You are probably right that intent is needed and that would be hard to prove. So maybe he caught a break? His wife was shot to death; I think “he caught a break” is a pretty poor description of events. ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/112 "2025-11-11T20:36:42Z")
I’m trying to think about this issue from the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/113 "2025-11-11T20:39:45Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > I’m trying to think about this issue from the other side The “other side” of what? There is absolutely no one who thinks that this guy whose wife was shot to death should have a felony fabricated and thrown at him in order to charge him with felony murder. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/114 "2025-11-11T20:45:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But there’s a pretty clear civilized consensus that “just shoot the bastard, and find out later” isn’t the right answer. Actually, no there isn’t. What you are talking about here (defending yourself in your home from an intruder) is commonly known as the “Castle Doctrine” and can be considered a subset of the “stand your ground” type laws. A basic perusal of the status of the doctrine in other countries shows NO consensus on what the boundary should be. See: [Castle doctrine - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine) A relevant quote from that Wikipedia entry regarding England: “The [Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_Justice_and_Immigration_Act_2008 "Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008") placed self-defence law onto a statutory footing. Section 76 of that Act was amended by section 43 of the [Crime and Courts Act 2013](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_Courts_Act_2013 "Crime and Courts Act 2013"), to ensure that householders who use disproportionate (but not _grossly_ disproportionate) force to defend themselves or others in their homes will not be regarded as acting unlawfully.[[62]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#cite_note-62) This includes the intentional killing of an intruder.“ So, your allegedly enlightened England apparently allows the killing of an intruder, even if the act of killing was disproportionate to the threat posed by the intruder. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/115 "2025-11-11T20:55:44Z")
nice straw man scenarios, absolutely none of these are home invasions. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/116 "2025-11-11T20:58:27Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There is absolutely no one who thinks that this guy whose wife was shot to death should have a felony fabricated and thrown at him in order to charge him with felony murder. ICE does brown =\> manufactured crime =\> deportation ---
**Author:** ![Zoobi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/13edae/32.png) [@Zoobi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoobi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/117 "2025-11-11T20:59:43Z")
Well for one the guy who shot her. I am not crazy enough to think he’s the only one who would have done the same. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/118 "2025-11-11T21:01:43Z")
> [@Zoobi](#): > > Well for one the guy who shot her. The guy who shot her is clearly a violent idiot who killed an innocent person for no reason, but you think he wants her husband charged with a felony? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/119 "2025-11-11T22:39:23Z")
> [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](#): > > So, your allegedly enlightened England apparently allows the killing of an intruder, even if the act of killing was disproportionate to the threat posed by the intruder. Noting that this is not actually the topic of this thread, but please **[see my post here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/42)** about the restrictions on self-defense in both the UK and Canada, including in home invasions. The emphasis on reasonable and proportionate force is very different than in the US. The UK portion of what I quoted is also from WIkipedia, from an article on self-defense in English law, and appears to contradict what you posted. The Canadian law portion is from the website of a law firm. I know that the concept of reasonable and proportional force is taken very seriously in Canada because there have been a number of news stories about homeowners and shopkeepers being charged for using excessive force against burglars and other miscreants. They weren’t all necessarily convicted, but police charged them based on the wording of the law. Back to felony murder, I think it’s worth repeating the post from @Northern_Piper that the entire concept is unconstitutional in Canada under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, precluding the kinds of abuses that Oliver talked about. Rather than capping penalties for felony murder, I think it would be highly preferable to throw out the whole thing as a legal concept, but this isn’t the kind of ruling I’d ever expect from the current nutbars on the Supreme Court. As Oliver also pointed out, it appears to be used highly disproportionately against Blacks. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2025, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745/120 "2025-11-11T23:53:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The UK portion of what I quoted is also from WIkipedia, from an article on self-defense in English law, and appears to contradict what you posted. again, you are missing the distinction between self defense in a normal situation and the castle doctrine, which expands the scope of self defense and the deference paid to a homeowner when there is an intruder in your home. Very different situations. > [@wolfpup](#): > > but this isn’t the kind of ruling I’d ever expect from the current nutbars on the Supreme Court. it’s not the kind of ruling that ANY version of the US Supreme Court would make (or has made), since the doctrine has existed for well over 100 years in this country. They have had plenty of time to correct this “problem” as you see it, but remarkably never have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-oliver-nov-9-25-on-felony-murder/1024745.md?page=7)