# John Walsh/Foley/Gays & Gay Bashing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 4, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272 "2006-10-04T16:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/21 "2006-10-05T02:38:12Z")
Are we infantilizing 16-year-olds? Points to ponder: **16 is the legal age of consent in:** Andorra, Argentina, Australian Capital Territory, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia, Cuba, Estonia, Germany, Israel, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Russia, San Marino, Switzerland, Ukraine, Venezuela, the United Kingdom, **U.S. states:** Alaska, Connecticut, Georgia, Indiana, Maine, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Dakota. **15 is the legal age of consent in:** Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Monaco, Poland, Slovakia, Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/22 "2006-10-05T03:30:46Z")
Legally, none of this stuff makes perfect sense, or even very good sense. Pretty much not possible. I have known 16 year olds who were more emotionally together than many, many others much older. I’ve also known 16 year olds who were most definitely children. There is also a whole lot of bias to enter into it. Try as I might, I can’t consider a high school boy who gets a knobber from his totally hot teacher as anything _like_ a victim. Emotional scars like that could keep him giggling for years. Is it gender based? Hugh betcha! I also think women have the final say in whether or not to bear children, that is also gender based. Similarly, a man has somewhat more responsibility (not a lot, just _some_) that he maketh not the moves on the vulnerable. And the crux of that would have to be: when in doubt, the answer is no. So…setting an arbitrary number like 16 is clumsy and crude, but it sets a marker, at least. Trouble is, most people at 16 desperately want to believe themselves fully mature and worthy of complete adult empowerment. There is nothing at appeals to that need more than an adult who is utterly fascinated by their intelligence, maturity, etc. Also impossible to legislate is age difference: 18 seducing thirteen is far more repulsive than 23 seducing 18. 52 moving on 16 is…well…_way_ out of bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/23 "2006-10-05T03:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] The second thing I notice is that all the pages were made aware of his interest from the gitgo. These kids aren’t victims. They are not alone as prey. They had each other and the power to take him down if they wanted to but preferred not to during their time as pages. [/QUOTE] Not even close to reality on this count, even if they “all” knew. Foley had power, they didn’t; they put up with it exactly because he was powerful and they weren’t used to powerful people paying attention to them. What are you saying they could have done? Republican leadership ignored them and the media ignored them because they felt like it or decided there wasn’t enough to substantiate the charges. The kids who had a consensual relationship with him, maybe, aren’t victims. The ones who he tried to pick up who weren’t interested can certainly be called victims. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/24 "2006-10-05T07:00:11Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] So what _do_ you call a straight fifty-something man who solicits underaged girls (aside from “creep”)? “Pedophile” is still the best term for the job, IMO; quibbling over at what under-18 age makes it less creepy is a semantic exercise. [/QUOTE] “Hebephile.” In Foley’s case, “ephebephile,” as he was into boys, not girls. “Pedophile” specifically refers to people who are attracted to _pre-pubescent_ children. Baring unusual medical circumstances, a fifteen year old is post-pubescent. It’s got nothing to do with trying to make Foley “less creepy.” It’s about using the proper word for the situation. On the other hand, you _could_ try to argue that Canada (age of consent: fourteen) has legalized pedophilia. But I don’t think you’ll get very far on that track. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/25 "2006-10-05T09:06:14Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Try as I might, I can’t consider a high school boy who gets a knobber from his totally hot teacher as anything _like_ a victim. Emotional scars like that could keep him giggling for years. [/QUOTE] When I worked on an adolescent psych ward I had a patient that was molested by an older woman at about 15 or so…it seriously screwed him so much so that he was in a locked inpatient psych ward. He was not in any way emtionally ready for what happened and yeah, he was a victim. I also know people who had sex younger than him, with adults, and were not screwed up. At that age there are so much differance from one kid to the next that there it is better to play it safe. When I was 21 or so I met a really attractive girl was muture, looked to be about 18 or so, and was attracted to me. She turned out to be 16 and I left her the hell alone because wether or not she was above the curve emotionally it was illegal and immoral (IMO). Any man, gay or straight, who obviously knows that A: It’s illegal, and B: its a career ruiner and still cant control himself to keep from talking dirty is sick…its not a normal attraction it is a compulsion that is out of his control and it is only a matter of time till he acts on it. I know several gay men and none of them would do something this stupid. I’m sure there are plenty of legal aged men he could send suggestive IM’s to, it was the idea of them being under age that did it for him. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/26 "2006-10-05T10:02:31Z")
The only thing that surprizes me about this is the timing. Like most ‘scandals’ this sounds like common knowledge - conveniently suppressed until useful Get ready for a Democrat revelation ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/27 "2006-10-05T14:28:06Z")
As others have said on this board and elsewhere, since his behavior has been been known about for several years a more useful October Surprise would’ve been in October, 2004. And who could’ve known it would have such “legs” and would spray shit on so many powerful people? There was a professional crisis manager (he worked for Clinton so he had plenty of experience) on the radio today who went through the rules of crisis management Hastert violated. All of them, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/28 "2006-10-05T14:55:14Z")
It’s hard to say how much of it is gay bashing. Obviously there are people who think this is just an example of typical homosexual perversion. Then again there are other people who just don’t think it’s right for a man his age to persue a relationship with teens no matter if the age of consent might be 16. I’d be pretty upset if a man in his 40’s was wooing my 16 year old son or daughter. I’d also be pretty upset if a woman his age were wooking my theoretical 16 year old son or daughter. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/29 "2006-10-05T15:12:36Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Pedophilia has never been acceptable in any human society. [/QUOTE] That’s not exactly true. The ancient Greeks and [Polynesians](http://www.toddler-life.com/article/Pedophilia) and Japanese practiced it. The prophet [Mohammed](http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm) married a six-year-old and consummated the union when she was nine. (Though some scholars disagree with this.) In some African [societies](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/27/international/africa/27malawi.html?ex=1290747600&en=63a34f38b60ff3f4&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss) today, girls are married off before they even reach puberty. As I’ve heard, the ancient Romans even had a public holiday honoring young prostitutes. Each culture has its own taboos, but none are universal. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/30 "2006-10-05T15:47:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] But I think the OP is saying that John Walsh, of all people, should know the difference. I seriously doubt that if a straight man were hitting on 16 year-old-girls, that we’d hear so much about pedophilia from folks. Too many people think that gay = pedophile, so those of us who know better shouldn’t feed that ignorance. [/QUOTE] I saw John Walsh and I heard him say something along the lines of ‘this is a pedophile thing and not a homosexual thing’. Granted that is just a paraphrase, but that is the jist of what I heard Walsh say. I grant that Walsh seemed to be using the word pedophile in the wrong way, but I do not think that he equated gay with pediophile at all. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/31 "2006-10-05T17:55:23Z")
Walsh needs to be understood. Even if he understands the terms in question, he needs to get picked up on sound bites and say things that will be understood by the majority of people. Going into explanations on what the difference between pedophilia, ephebophilia and hebophilia don’t make for a good thirty seconds on CNN. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/32 "2006-10-05T18:22:13Z")
Just to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply that Wlash was purposing trying to tie pedophilia to homosexuality. But what I find incomprehensible is that we are even debating this subject at all. Isn’t this MB supposed to be about fighting ignorance? Now, I’m generally in favor of the principle that a word means whatever people think it means, but this case, like a few others, doesn’t fall in that category. If pedophilia loses it’s precise meaning, then we have to invent a new word to replace it because being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children is markedly different both psychologically and legally from being attracted to post-pubescent teenagers. All I’m asking is that if you really know what the term means, don’t use it incorrectly. IOW, **don’t spread ignorance**. How that can be a contraversial issue on this MB is mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/33 "2006-10-05T19:17:33Z")
I agree that we shouldn’t be using “pedophile” incorrectly. I don’t know if Foley is one or not, but there is no evidence at this point that he is attracted to children, and by misusing that term, it gets the focus off his actual offenses. That being an abuse of power, sexual harrassment, and at least in one documented case, promoting the deliquency of a minor (by offering booze). None of those things are related to pedophilia. It does seem like people are using “pedophilia” to make his behavior seem extra egregious and shocking. I hate when people do this with the English language. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/34 "2006-10-05T22:21:22Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] “Hebephile.” In Foley’s case, “ephebephile,” as he was into boys, not girls. [/quote] Good luck getting either of those terms into the mainstream lexicon any time soon. 🙂 > [@FRDE](#): > > Like most ‘scandals’ this sounds like common knowledge - conveniently suppressed until useful > > Get ready for a Democrat revelation Sorry, but that right-wing fantasy/talking point has already been punctured: [Longtime Republican was Source of Foley E-mails](http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/100506/news2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/35 "2006-10-05T22:35:36Z")
[QUOTE=rjung] Good luck getting either of those terms into the mainstream lexicon any time soon. 🙂 [/QUOTE] What’s that got to do with anything? Other people misuse the term. That doesn’t excuse us misusing it if we know better. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/36 "2006-10-05T23:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] I agree that we shouldn’t be using “pedophile” incorrectly. [/QUOTE] Popular usage trumps the dictionary, I’m afraid. Nobody but us Doper-type pedants knows what an “ephebophile” is; most people are doing well to know that “pedo-” means “child”, and “child” means “minor”. You’d have more success fighting the battles of “whom” and “their”. Foley is a pedophile. Deal with it and move on to something that matters to real people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/37 "2006-10-05T23:53:18Z")
The only way you change things is to start using it, and encouraging others to use it. That’s the only way anything changes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/38 "2006-10-06T00:27:26Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Popular usage trumps the dictionary, I’m afraid. Nobody but us Doper-type pedants knows what an “ephebophile” is; most people are doing well to know that “pedo-” means “child”, and “child” means “minor”. [/QUOTE] First, the dictionary _is_ popular usage, although the vagaries of publishing and the speed of dialect evolution means the dictionary is always a couple steps behind. Second, pedophilia is a medical term with a specific definition that does not include what Mark Foley did. Professional usage always trumps popular usage. It doesn’t matter what the layman thinks pedophile means. The definition is set by experts in the field of psychology. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/39 "2006-10-06T01:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Foley is a pedophile. [/QUOTE] Can you explain how that helps to fight ignorance? Remember, this thread is specifically addressing that issue, so it’s not some tangential semantic debate. As far as this thread is concerned, that is the debate. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272/40 "2006-10-06T01:33:56Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Popular usage trumps the dictionary, I’m afraid. [/QUOTE] I’ve never heard “popular usage” calling anyone a pedophile because they talk to 16 year olds. Such a person is usually called a perv or a dirty old man, but a pedophile is in another class. Pedophiles are guys like the Maytag man in that Very Special Episode of Different Strokes. Why must we label his behavior with some special term anyway? If the pages in question were 20 instead of 16, his conduct would still be improper. The ignoramuses may not complain because you’re calling the guy a pedophile, but you lose credibility with anyone who knows what a pedophile actually is. That doesn’t matter to you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-walsh-foley-gays-gay-bashing/375272.md?page=3)