# John Wayne would have kicked Chuck Norris's ass **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 11, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808 "2010-12-11T19:34:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/81 "2010-12-13T19:03:11Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Who would win between Bon Jovi and a blade of grass? > > Assume Bon Jovi sneaks up on the blade of grass while it’s sleeping. The ant crawling on the ground will scare Bon Jovi into making a noise, waking up the blade of grass. Fight over, blade of grass in the first round, by a knockout. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/82 "2010-12-13T20:02:53Z")
My housemate just said, “John Wayne was a sissy trying to act like a tough guy; Chuck Norris was a tough guy, trying to be an actor. You tell me who would win.” Win. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/83 "2010-12-13T21:00:25Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > My housemate just said, “John Wayne was a sissy trying to act like a tough guy; Chuck Norris was a tough guy, trying to be an actor. You tell me who would win.” Win. John Wayne would have kicked your housemate’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/84 "2010-12-13T21:27:45Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > My housemate just said, “John Wayne was a sissy trying to act like a tough guy; Chuck Norris was a tough guy, trying to be an actor. You tell me who would win.” Win. Finally some sense in this thread. It’s hard to take John Wayne’s tough guy image seriously when he deferred from enlisting while fellow actors like Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were like “Yeah, let’s go kick some Nazi ass.” He didn’t even have any medical problems, he just didn’t feel like it. John Wayne wasn’t a hero, he was a shitty actor who occasionally got lucky with the right part (not to mention a shill for the very product that eventually killed him). ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/85 "2010-12-13T23:18:08Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > \*The Shootist \*and \*True Grit \*would like a word with you. You got me there, but I defy you to name a good Norris flick. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/86 "2010-12-13T23:48:18Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Finally some sense in this thread. > > It’s hard to take John Wayne’s tough guy image seriously when he deferred from enlisting while fellow actors like Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were like “Yeah, let’s go kick some Nazi ass.” He didn’t even have any medical problems, he just didn’t feel like it. John Wayne wasn’t a hero, he was a shitty actor who occasionally got lucky with the right part (not to mention a shill for the very product that eventually killed him). John Wayne’s refusal to serve is mystifying, but irrelevant to his toughness. Muhammed Ali refused induction, and would have kicked Noriss’s or Wayne’s ass without doubt. Wayne’s failure to serve is thought to have lead to his adoption of modern conservative views later in life. Norris, by the way, could have re-enlisted and served in Vietnam, though it would have been understandable if he did not after the death of his brother in 1970. Also, Norris and Wayne appeared together in the Green Berets. Norris had an uncredited role. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/87 "2010-12-14T02:15:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > You got me there, but I defy you to name a good Norris flick. Touché. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/88 "2010-12-14T03:01:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Umm…OK? So…he wouldn’t have gotten firearm training? Not really sure where your going with this. If it was Air Force, as stated upthread, he was likely an SP (AF version of MP, stands for Special Police…thinks Jerry’s kids special). During my time in the USAF, despite being on a base whose with secure intelligence facilities, we joked about whether or not the SPs guarding the facilities were issued bullets. Another ongoing joke was that these SPs were airman who washed out of cook school. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/89 "2010-12-14T03:11:25Z")
Another character – Darth Vader. Two words: Force choke. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/90 "2010-12-14T03:24:21Z")
The talk about Bruce Lee earlier made me remember one of the funniest lines I’ve read on [cracked.com](http://cracked.com): > [@](#): > > Norris’ first major role was standing toe-to-toe with Bruce Lee in Way of the Dragon, where he actually managed to kick him in the face once. That doesn’t sound terribly impressive, until you remember that Bruce Lee invented legs just so he’d have two more things to beat you with when his fists got bored. > > Read more: [5 Movie Martial Artists That Lost a Deathmatch to Dignity | Cracked.com](http://www.cracked.com/article_15819_5-movie-martial-artists-that-lost-deathmatch-to-dignity_p5.html#ixzz183Ki3lBc) ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/91 "2010-12-14T07:20:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Muhammed Ali refused induction, and would have kicked Noriss’s or Wayne’s ass without doubt. Well, I have my doubts. Wayne, sure, but Norris, maybe maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/92 "2010-12-14T07:28:54Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Well, I have my doubts. Wayne, sure, but Norris, maybe maybe not. At his peak as the heavyweight champion, Ali was about 6’2", and over 220 lbs. He was extremely fast, very long arms, and was extremely difficult to hit. He demonstrated an ability to absorb monstrous punches. The left hook Joe Frasier hit him with in their first fight would have taken Chuck’s head off. His fist twisted at the end of his jabs, and he would have torn up Norris’s face and swollen his eyes. He knocked out many men much bigger than Chuck Norris. No contest. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/93 "2010-12-14T09:03:37Z")
I’m not at all convinced that Norris could have beaten Bruce Lee, much less Ali. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/94 "2010-12-14T12:27:04Z")
Yeah. Norris has chops as a martial artist, no doubt, but – frankly – that may not count for a heckuva lot in a brawl. Ali was strong, fast, and (as noted) considerably larger than the 5’10" Norris. The latter would’ve been battered into the ground. (As for Norris vs. Lee: recently someone linked to [their fight in Way of the Dragon](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqzQ2qrtBeg) on Reddit with the title “Atheist Beats Evangelical Christian to Death”, which was, I suppose, at least worth a chuckle …) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/95 "2010-12-14T13:53:50Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Norris for sure. Not only was he a trained martial artist, as others have pointed out, but he used to fight in the old school full contact martial arts tournaments, and win fairly regularly. I actually saw some of those when I was a younger martial artist and they were pretty intense. > [@](#): > > =Sam Stone]He didn’t just win fairly regularly - he was a six-time middleweight world champion in full-contact Karate, and retired from that undefeated. I don’t believe Chuck Norris ever fought full contact, at least officially. He promoted some full contact events, but all his tournament wins (of which there were many) were the semi- or no-contact variety. I am open to correction on this. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/96 "2010-12-14T17:07:56Z")
Good points, Shodan, since full-contact didn’t come into vogue until five years after Norris’ last win. Per the OP: if we are talking about the actual men in their physical primes, then of course it’s no contest. The Duke certainly had a marked size advantage – at least eight inches in height and probably fifty pounds in weight – but at the end of the day you’re talking about a karate champion against a college football lineman with some non-competitive boxing experience. Chuck was a fighter who did some acting; Duke was an actor who was unusually capable physically, but never a competitive martial artist. If we’re talking about who created the more convincing tough-guy characters, however…well, that has to go to the Duke. John Wayne is chronically underrated as an actor, especially by folks who’ve never seen his movies, and occasionally by his own fans. He is perhaps the one actor who could command the full attention of the frame in every shot, with the possible exception of his work in \*The Long Voyage Home \*where he was admittedly lost in a role he wasn’t ready for. I’ll admit my exposure to Chuck Norris is limited to his movies in the 70s and 80s, but as an actor, he was a good fighter, and the viewer had to be constantly reminded that this less-than-dominant personality had combat skills–it wasn’t constantly evident in his persona the way it was with the Duke’s. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/97 "2010-12-14T17:12:56Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > People make jokes about Chuck Norris, but nobody makes jokes about Bruce Lee. That’s because they’re not jokes. Anybody on the internet will tell you, completely in earnest, that Bruce Lee was simply incabable of being defeated. Bruce Lee in his lifetime beat up thousands of men, women and children, most of them at the same time, receiving only a small cut on his upper lip for his troubles, which _did not bleed_. A 40 story building, a shipload of iron ore, and a Boeing B-29 Superfortress once challenged Bruce Lee to a four-way death match; none was ever heard from again. Bruce Lee is widely regarded by most paleontologists to have traveled back in time and beat up the dinosaurs, causing their extinction. Bruce Lee soundly defeated the color brown. Pangea is believed to have separated after it lost a bet against Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee is the unrecognized and uncredited winner of the last nine Super Bowls. Bruce Lee once got in a fight with the air and beat the shit out of it; this is the reason that people now get asthma. in 1959, Bruce Lee traveled to the bottom of the Marianas trench to challenge it to a fight, but the trench backed out. Bruce Lee voluntarily left the Garden of Eden three days before Adam and Eve after leg wrestling the unicorns into submission. Mars was a moon of the Earth before being kicked out of orbit by Bruce Lee. Cheese in Bruce Lee’s refrigerator never went bad because he would fist fight the mold nightly before bed. When he rose again the next morning, his pants would fly onto his legs rather than fight him. The fight between Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris at the end of _Return of the Dragon_ was not part of the movie; rather, it is actual footage of the fight which will take place between them at the end of time in which Bruce Lee will kill Chuck Norris, thus destroying the universe. The problem is that these are all true. I keed, but several boxing pros who worked with Lee Jun Fan were quite convinced that he could have been a major welterweight contender if he’d boxed professionally, and after Gene LeBell was through with him, Lee was quite the grappler, too. I wouldn’t want to stand in with him. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/98 "2010-12-14T18:27:52Z")
On the Muhammed Ali question, did he know how to kick? And for that matter, would it even occur to him to do so? While his arms might have longer reach than (say) Norris’s, Norris’s legs would almost certainly have more reach than Ali’s arms, and more strength besides. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/99 "2010-12-14T19:51:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the Muhammed Ali question, did he know how to kick? And for that matter, would it even occur to him to do so? While his arms might have longer reach than (say) Norris’s, Norris’s legs would almost certainly have more reach than Ali’s arms, and more strength besides. Above the waist, foot reach is about the same as hand reach. Norris was also much shorter and couldn’t have connected a kick to Ali’s head without leaving himself very vulnerable. Ali had no particular kicking skills, but he survived some heavy kicking to his legs from Antonio Inoki in their idiotic boxer vs. wrestler match. If Norris got close enough to Ali to do any damage with hand or foot, Ali would have knocked him out. But Ali would have knocked out John Wayne too, so I’m not sure how that relates to the Wayne vs. Norris question. I pointed out Ali to show that someone can be tough and dangerous without serving in the military. The Joe Louis-Billy Conn fight could show what would happen in a Wayne-Norris fight. In that case, Billy Conn, a middleweight posing as a light-heavyweight, outpointed Louis until the 13th round when Joe Louis knocked him out. Billy Conn is a good analog for Chuck Norris, but John Wayne was no Joe Louis. Norris would have won in those circumstances. For the real people anyway. For the characters, Wayne would be the equivalent of Joe Louis, but Norris would be still be a Billy Conn. ETA: ‘Above the waist’ is a poor description because of the variety of kicks that can be performed. At head height of the kicker, foot and hand reach would be about equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808/100 "2010-12-14T20:55:08Z")
OK, so you kick the guy in the knees until he falls over and everything is “below the waist”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-wayne-would-have-kicked-chuck-norriss-ass/563808.md?page=6)