# John William's film Scores: did He "Borrow"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 1, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581 "2008-11-01T16:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/1 "2008-11-01T16:10:03Z")
I just picjked up a great CD -“THE SEA HAWK”-the film scores of E.W. Korngold. This is a great disc-it contains a lot of Korngold’s scores, for movies from the 1930’s and 40’s (The Sea Hawk, Juarez, Anthony Adverse. Great music! at any rate, the fianle of the score for the “The Sea Hawk” sounds an awful lot like the finale from “star wars”! Did John Williams “borrow” from Korngold’s score? If so, shouldn’t he have given credit to korngold? Is this sort of theing common in Hollywood? If williams at least acknowledged Korngold’s work, I suppose it would be OK-but if not, isn’t this pretty sleazy?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/2 "2008-11-01T17:03:38Z")
Huh. I assumed this thread would be about Holst’s “Mars, Bringer of War.” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/3 "2008-11-01T17:06:19Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I just picjked up a great CD -“THE SEA HAWK”-the film scores of E.W. Korngold. Korngold was _specifically_ what Lucas had in mind when he hired John Williams. I recall hearing Lucas explain on a “Extra Features!” section how he wanted a Korngold-style orchestral score. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/4 "2008-11-01T17:21:35Z")
I don’t know about Korngold, but the Star Wars score blatantly rips off bits from Ralph Vaughn Williams. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/5 "2008-11-01T17:24:32Z")
Before the score was written, the was an early print made with various “found” music, intended to be evocative of the mood. (eg; Holst’s “Mars” from _The Planets_ was used as Vader’s theme.) It went down like that all down the line. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/6 "2008-11-01T17:36:15Z")
Listen o the theme from 1942’s _King’s Row_ by Korngold and you’ll think you’re listening to the _Star Wars_ title theme soundtrack. Many of my friends have been fooled by it. Mr. Williams did a good job. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/7 "2008-11-01T23:58:38Z")
Korngold’s score for _The Adventures of Robin Hood_ is one of the alltime greatest scores ever. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/8 "2008-11-02T06:55:57Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Before the score was written, the was an early print made with various “found” music, intended to be evocative of the mood. (eg; Holst’s “Mars” from _The Planets_ was used as Vader’s theme.) It went down like that all down the line. That’s standard practice for directors. The score from _2001_ is what Kubrick picked out to give the composer an idea for the music style he wanted for the movie. Said composer composed a score, which was recorded. When Kubrick heard it, however, he preferred his own selection over the original score and went with that. (Supposedly, one of the studio execs noticed that Kubrick wanted to use _The Blue Danube_ and told Kubrick that this wasn’t a good choice, since it was apparently the default roll that came with every player piano and that everyone would associate the music with that, and not the movie. Kubrick told the exec words to the effect of, “Not once they see the movie, they won’t.”) Embarrassingly, **nobody** told the composer that they’d decided to ditch his music, and he didn’t discover it until he sat down to watch the movie at the premiere. Having heard the original score for the film, I have to say that Kubrick made the right choice. Williams is pretty much a “thief,” however, in that most of the stuff he composes for films is heavily cribbed from works in the public domain. IIRC, the throbbing note in _Jaws_ comes from a Bach piece. (Don’t remember what it is or exactly who composed it, but when you hear the piece, you _instantly_ realize that’s where Williams’ got it.) Mind you, Williams _greatly_ expanded upon the work that he borrowed it from, so he’s not a complete cribber, but if you’ve got a copy of Holst’s _Mars, Bringer of War_, you basically have 99% of the _Star Wars_ soundtrack. Even the _Cantina_ theme is ripped from someone else, with the difference being that the original was _not_ performed on oil drums. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/9 "2008-11-02T16:27:07Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > IIRC, the throbbing note in _Jaws_ comes from a Bach piece. (Don’t remember what it is or exactly who composed it… Um… maybe Bach? 😉 But look, the _Star Wars_ thing is the same story as _2001_. George Lucas was originally going to have Williams arrange “The Planets” to fit the scenes instead of composing new music. Williams said “Look, I can compose something just like it and be original at the same time”, and he did. I’m not saying he doesn’t borrow heavily, because he does. But personally I think the _Star Wars_ thing is a bad example. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/10 "2008-11-02T21:19:56Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Korngold’s score for _The Adventures of Robin Hood_ is one of the alltime greatest scores ever. The story behind it is even better, and well worthy of its own movie. The Jewish Korngold, a child prodigy and well-respected classical composer in his own right, was in Hollywood in 1938 writing the Robin Hood score when the Anschluss happened and the Nazis annexed Austria: he reckoned later that the film saved his life. He managed to get his family out on the last train from Vienna, and became an exile in America, using his film earnings to help support other refugees. He also gave up composing classical music until Hitler was defeated: sadly, his Wagnerian style had fallen out of favour in the intervening years, and his return to his homeland was a relative failure. See the “Robin Hood” DVD extras {the best DVD extras ever, actually}, for the full, fascinating and improbable story. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/11 "2008-11-02T21:30:34Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > The story behind it is even better, and well worthy of its own movie. The Jewish Korngold, a child prodigy and well-respected classical composer in his own right, was in Hollywood in 1938 writing the Robin Hood score when the Anschluss happened and the Nazis annexed Austria: he reckoned later that the film saved his life. He managed to get his family out on the last train from Vienna, and became an exile in America, using his film earnings to help support other refugees. He also gave up composing classical music until Hitler was defeated: sadly, his Wagnerian style had fallen out of favour in the intervening years, and his return to his homeland was a relative failure. > > See the “Robin Hood” DVD extras {the best DVD extras ever, actually}, for the full, fascinating and improbable story. Is he the model for one of the characters in Branagh’s _Dead Again_? Its been a while since I’ve seen the film, but a couple of the characters are thinly veiled references to actual Hollywood figures from the 1940s. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/12 "2008-11-02T22:02:40Z")
Also, I’d say Williams’ score for _The Cowboys_ borrows heavily from Aaron Copland. (Though the best music in the film is a famous Vivaldi piece on guitar; lovely little scene, really.) Danny Elfman tends to steal more from Leonard Bernstein. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/13 "2008-11-02T23:30:46Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > IIRC, the throbbing note in _Jaws_ comes from a Bach piece. (Don’t remember what it is or exactly who composed it, but when you hear the piece, you _instantly_ realize that’s where Williams’ got it.) . Dvorak’s [New World Symphony,](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yctfXIqugXc) perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/14 "2008-11-02T23:49:52Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Dvorak’s [New World Symphony,](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yctfXIqugXc) perhaps? Don’t think that’s it (but I didn’t listen to the whole thing), but in the piece I’m thinking of, there’s the deep cello notes that just _appear_ in about the middle of it, not at the beginning. Certainly, however, it sounds like Dvorak’s piece had an influence. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/15 "2008-11-03T00:56:47Z")
What about “[My Woman](http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=XqH1Q1Pe8J0)” from the 1930s? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/16 "2008-11-03T01:41:50Z")
When it comes to music, what is new. A couple centuries of music has made everything derivative. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/17 "2008-11-03T02:44:28Z")
When I was in University, we used to get drunk and play “spot the quote” from John William’s soundtracks… Debussy, Vaughn Williams, Delius, there’s lot of stuff where you find yourself thinking "Did he change _any_ of the notes or what? “Jaws” is just like the Black God movement from Prokoffiev’s “Scythian Suite” slowed down. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/18 "2008-11-03T02:51:14Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > What about “[My Woman](http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=XqH1Q1Pe8J0)” from the 1930s? Suddenly the White Town song sample (“Your Woman”) makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/19 "2008-11-03T03:20:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > When it comes to music, what is new. A couple centuries of music has made everything derivative. standing on a beach - oh look, here comes the last wave. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/20 "2008-11-03T03:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > but if you’ve got a copy of Holst’s Mars, Bringer of War, you basically have 99% of the Star Wars soundtrack. Hyperbole is one thing, but this is a bit much. I’m very familiar with Holst’s **Planets Suite** – The Hayden Planetarium in New York used it all the time to give each planet a signature theme. Plus I’ve got several different recordings of this and other Holst works that I listen to all the time. There’s a world of difference there, folks. If you really do think Williams directly ripps off Holst, you have a defective musical education. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581.md?page=2)