# John William's film Scores: did He "Borrow"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 1, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581 "2008-11-01T16:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/21 "2008-11-03T03:51:38Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Hyperbole is one thing, but this is a bit much. > > I’m very familiar with Holst’s **Planets Suite** – The Hayden Planetarium in New York used it all the time to give each planet a signature theme. Plus I’ve got several different recordings of this and other Holst works that I listen to all the time. There’s a world of difference there, folks. If you really do think Williams directly ripps off Holst, you have a defective musical education. Bull. Vader’s theme comes from it, the final battle theme comes from it, as do a number of elements (the sandpeople theme is another one, that pops into my head as I relisten to Holst). Take a listen to the Star Wars soundtrack again. Williams borrows just huge amounts from _Mars_. He doesn’t necessarily take entire movements from the piece, but he’ll take a section (say a few measures in lengths), expand upon them slightly, or simply repeat those portions over and over again. Nor is it him simply slipping in a bit here and there as a wink, its quite clear that he’s using those sections from Holst as the _centerpiece_ of his composition. The final moments of _Mars_ are damned near identical to Williams score for the destruction of the Death Star. Enough so that were Holst still around he’d be able to sue for copyright infringement. We’ve had threads on Williams before and the Dopers with musical cred have **all** weighed in on Williams being rather blatent in his cribbing. (“Hack” featured in a number of the comments as I recall.) ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/22 "2008-11-03T04:54:20Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > …its quite clear that he’s using those sections from Holst as the _centerpiece_ of his composition. Which is exactly what I explained in Post 9. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/23 "2008-11-03T05:13:36Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Which is exactly what I explained in Post 9. Which, apparently, **Cal** missed. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/24 "2008-11-03T06:26:34Z")
I watched Star Trek II: The Vengeance of Khan three times at the movies. When it came out on VHS, I saw it a half-dozen times before returning it to the Video store. As you would expect, I see it now whenever it appears on the tube. So I know the movie well. So when I got a free cd of “Excerpts from Peer Gynt by Edvard Grieg” I was surprised to recognize one of the themes as one used by Williams during the coffin on the planet sequences. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/25 "2008-11-03T06:39:25Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > I watched Star Trek II: The Vengeance of Khan three times at the movies. When it came out on VHS, I saw it a half-dozen times before returning it to the Video store. As you would expect, I see it now whenever it appears on the tube. So I know the movie well. > > So when I got a free cd of “Excerpts from Peer Gynt by Edvard Grieg” I was surprised to recognize one of the themes as one used by Williams during the coffin on the planet sequences. Uh, its _Wrath of Khan_, the soundtrack was composed by [James Horner](http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-II-Original-Soundtrack/dp/B000001P0Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1225694233&sr=1-1), and the _big_ piece of music during the funeral scene is _Amazing Grace_, which starts out with Scotty playing it on the bagpipes, and then switches to an orchestrial version once they crap Spock out into space. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/26 "2008-11-03T07:10:51Z")
Hijack time! Which is more lame about _Star Trek_, that Scotty is an engineer just because he’s Scottish, or that we’re supposed to accept that _of course_ he knows how to play bagpipes, because after all, he’s Scottish? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/27 "2008-11-03T07:15:41Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > I watched Star Trek II: The Vengeance of Khan three times at the movies. When it came out on VHS, I saw it a half-dozen times before returning it to the Video store. As you would expect, I see it now whenever it appears on the tube. So I know the movie well. > > So when I got a free cd of “Excerpts from Peer Gynt by Edvard Grieg” I was surprised to recognize one of the themes as one used by Williams during the coffin on the planet sequences. > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Uh, its _Wrath of Khan_, the soundtrack was composed by [James Horner](http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-II-Original-Soundtrack/dp/B000001P0Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1225694233&sr=1-1), and the _big_ piece of music during the funeral scene is _Amazing Grace_, which starts out with Scotty playing it on the bagpipes, and then switches to an orchestrial version once they crap Spock out into space. Mine ears detect a whooshing noise. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/28 "2008-11-03T07:18:30Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Hijack time! > > Which is more lame about _Star Trek_, that Scotty is an engineer just because he’s Scottish, or that we’re supposed to accept that _of course_ he knows how to play bagpipes, because after all, he’s Scottish? Scotty became Scottish because James Doohan wanted him to be. When he went for the audition, he asked about the character, and they told him they hadn’t really defined anything about him, other than he was an engineer. To which Doohan said, “Well, if he’s an engineer, then he’s _got_ to be a Scot!” and thus he was. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/29 "2008-11-03T07:56:30Z")
[SDMB cliché] Wow, all this talk about John Williams’ stealing melodies for his film scores and I can’t believe this hasn’t been mentioned yet - “Raiders Of The Lost Ark” theme song “borrowed” from the early 1960’s Kent cigarette melody.[/SDMB cliché] I thought of this immediately when I saw the film way back in 1981. Here’s someone else who thinks along the same lines [http://forums.dealnews.com/read.php?6,2629800](http://forums.dealnews.com/read.php?6,2629800) and here’s a YouTube video of that old commercial [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/33fSU2Q_ZUY/hqdefault.jpg "The Kiddify Kent Cigarette Commercial") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33fSU2Q_ZUY) Also at You Tube, there’s some videos relating the original melody is from classical music. But be that as it may, it seems Mr Williams “borrowed” it from someplace. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/30 "2008-11-03T08:24:18Z")
The Kent cigarette song was just the song “Happiness Is” by the Ray Conniff Singers with different words. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/31 "2008-11-03T11:16:14Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > [SDMB cliché] Wow, all this talk about John Williams’ stealing melodies for his film scores and I can’t believe this hasn’t been mentioned yet - “Raiders Of The Lost Ark” theme song “borrowed” from the early 1960’s Kent cigarette melody.[/SDMB cliché] > > I thought of this immediately when I saw the film way back in 1981. Here’s someone else who thinks along the same lines [http://forums.dealnews.com/read.php?6,2629800](http://forums.dealnews.com/read.php?6,2629800) > > and here’s a YouTube video of that old commercial > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33fSU2Q\_ZUY](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33fSU2Q_ZUY) > Also at You Tube, there’s some videos relating the original melody is from classical music. > But be that as it may, it seems Mr Williams “borrowed” it from someplace. I dunno guys. Similar chord structures–even identical ones, esp if they are simple–do not “borrowing” make. I can see that the melody has a couple of similar (but identical only for three quarter notes in one measure) phrases. But it would take a lot more than this to convince me any kind of borrowing had occured. Regarding Mars Bringer of War, I see even less similarity between that and the Imperial March. Indeed, the two have quite different tones, and as far as I can tell, _no_ similarity in melody. There is that driving rhythmic string thing going on underneath in both cases, but again, a single similar characteristic doesn’t “borrowing” make. I know he was _inspired_ by “Mars Bringer of War” and that I can believe, but what he wrote is so different that I can’t see how it could be characterized as “borrowing” or even worse “cribbing.” -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/32 "2008-11-03T12:22:58Z")
I always thought the Imperial March was Chopin’s Funeral March. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/33 "2008-11-03T12:43:32Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Don’t think that’s it (but I didn’t listen to the whole thing), but in the piece I’m thinking of, there’s the deep cello notes that just _appear_ in about the middle of it, not at the beginning. Certainly, however, it sounds like Dvorak’s piece had an influence. [Mahler’s first symphony,](http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uhGJxO_Qbqo) at 7’17"? [Shostakovich, fifth symphony](http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=axN0A5n-4yA&feature=related), 2’05"? There’s plenty of Prokofiev in these scores, too. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/34 "2008-11-03T12:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > We’ve had threads on Williams before and the Dopers with musical cred have all weighed in on Williams being rather blatent in his cribbing. (“Hack” featured in a number of the comments as I recall.) Well, I don’t, and I’ve had musical training, too. Maybe my standards for “borrowing” and “cribbing” are different from yours, but I don’t see it, aside from inspiration. Dammit, Holst doesn’t phrase the same way Williams does. To say that Williams is just grabbing chunks of Holst and passing them off as his own is just wrong,. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/35 "2008-11-03T13:33:12Z")
It’s a time-honoured tradition. Mozart wrote variations on a theme by Bach, Schumann (I think) has variations on a theme by Mozart, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/36 "2008-11-03T13:35:48Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > It’s a time-honoured tradition. Mozart wrote variations on a theme by Bach, Schumann (I think) has variations on a theme by Mozart, etc. etc. But the Star Wars examples adduced in this thread don’t even count as “variations on a theme.” There are no shared themes. Inspiration I can buy–especially since it appears Williams himself never made any bones about there being an inspirational influence–but “cribbing” “borrowing” and “varying a theme” I am simply not seeing. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/37 "2008-11-03T14:09:27Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Listen o the theme from 1942’s _King’s Row_ by Korngold and you’ll think you’re listening to the _Star Wars_ title theme soundtrack. Many of my friends have been fooled by it. > > Mr. Williams did a good job. Here’s a short comparison: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8AokqzpdA3M/hqdefault.jpg "Star Wars and Kings Row soundtrack comparison") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AokqzpdA3M) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/38 "2008-11-03T15:02:06Z")
As I recall, E.W. Korngold always credited his source -he would write a score, and list it as "Theme by Mozart, arrngement by Korngold). This seems to be an entirely honest way of presenting one’s work. But to shamelessly steal (with out crediting the source) seems wrong to me. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/39 "2008-11-03T18:44:28Z")
It’s not stealing if the copyright ran out. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581/40 "2008-11-03T18:58:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It’s not stealing if the copyright ran out. Surely not the case with Korngold’s film scores. Anyway, the ‘stealing’ being talked about is a metaphor for his shameless misappropriation of themes, rhythms, soundworlds and so forth, often presenting them as something far more one-dimensional and banal than the original. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/john-williams-film-scores-did-he-borrow/470581.md?page=3)