# Johnny-come-lately masquerading as a classic **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818 "2018-03-19T10:28:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/21 "2018-03-20T03:11:31Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Unfortunately, here in New Zealand people are catching American holidays and festivals off television: specifically, almost certainly from watching The Simpsons. Halloween used to be barely a blip for pre-schoolers; now it’s a huge marketing exercise for lollies and bat-themed tat. Ditto St Patrick’s Day, which never even registered here until less than a decade ago, since Irish immigration wasn’t huge here: now there are parades. Cinco de Mayo is a pretty recent holiday in the American mainstream. I’m aware it goes back a ways in Mexico and presumably Mexican-Americans have been celebrating it. But as an American holiday celebrating Mexican-American culture (the way St Patrick’s Day is for Irish-American culture) it’s only been ten or fifteen years. There certainly were no stores having Cinco de Mayo sales of Corona beer and tamales when I was growing up. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/22 "2018-03-20T03:23:25Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Unfortunately, here in New Zealand people are catching American holidays and festivals off television: specifically, almost certainly from watching The Simpsons. Halloween used to be barely a blip for pre-schoolers; now it’s a huge marketing exercise for lollies and bat-themed tat. Ditto St Patrick’s Day, which never even registered here until less than a decade ago, since Irish immigration wasn’t huge here: now there are parades. You’re still okay until you start wanting to celebrate Cinco De Mayo. It’s a fairly minor historical event, nominally a Mexican victory over a French incursion, 1860’s about, close to the time of the US Civil War. If the French had succeeded, it might have been a problem for US interests. The event is not much recognized by anyone in Mexico. Still, it’s been picked up in the past few years by some parts of the US as a reason to celebrate Mexican culture. And drink Mexican beer. No, there’s nothing wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/23 "2018-03-20T03:24:28Z")
Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_Draper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Don\_Draper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_Draper)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/24 "2018-03-20T03:29:20Z")
> [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](#): > > I’ve heard Nigella Lawson say that “Christmas just isn’t Christmas without salted caramel”. Really? A Brit who grew up in the 60s and 70s reckons that? Seems a little unlikely. > > And Brits who think turkey isn’t turkey without cranberry sauce. West of the Atlantic, absolutely, but in the UK, that’s a pretty new idea in the grand scheme of things. And certainly not ubiquitous. > > So. What interlopers have you encountered? A thing which appears to have gained a reputation as an all-time classic, but you can remember a time not too long ago when it simply wasn’t a thing? I’ve heard the movie “Love, Actually” described as a “timeless holiday classic” and an “enduring iconic film.” The movie isn’t even 20 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/25 "2018-03-20T04:17:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, speaking of the Elf and Christmas traditions, what about the “German” [Christmas pickle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_pickle)? I’m sure most of you have no idea what I’m talking about, but around here in Chicago and I presume elsewhere in at least the Upper Midwest where they have German Christmas traditions and Christkindlmarkts and that sort of thing, there is a Christmas ornament of a pickle that is popular and claims to be a German tradition. Something about finding the Christmas pickle ornament on the tree brings you good luck or somesuch. Anyhow, I had a German girlfriend back in the mid-90s, and I asked her about the tradition, and she had absolutely no fucking clue what I was talking about. Maybe it was extremely regional, I thought. Well, since then the internet has vastly expanded, and it appears to be completely unknown anywhere in Germany, purely some sort of American invention. I wonder if that has anything to do with the wooden pickle the kid in _Bad Santa_ makes for Billy Bob Thornton (although the movie was set in Phoenix). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/26 "2018-03-20T04:24:30Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > Ninja’d! No, that would be Showa Day. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/27 "2018-03-20T04:34:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Green bean casserole (green beans, cream-of-mushroom soup, and French fried onions) is an indispensable part of Thanksgiving in America, but there are people still alive who remember before it existed. There are people still alive who wouldn’t eat it, at Thanksgiving or any other time, if it were the only dish on the table. I have never ever been near this dish in my life, not even at the kids’ table. Are you sure that isn’t a regional thing? Or a wet dream of the fried onion people? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/28 "2018-03-20T05:45:11Z")
The song “Alice’s Restaurant” had been around for decades, but I never heard of it being called “_The_ Thanksgiving song” until a few years ago. Maybe 2002ish, but no earlier. Until the interwebs got a hold of it, only the serious hippies and 3:00am disc jockeys knew the song. (jockies? Doesn’t look right.) ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/29 "2018-03-20T05:49:37Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes and no. One of the earliest memories was of the elf we had. It’s the same exact style as what is now the Elf on the Shelf. He was already well established in my house with his own name when was old enough to remember. So it was around from the late 1960s. This is not a fake memory since my mother still has the Elf along will all our old Christmas decorations. > > We gave him a name and put him sitting on a branch in the tree. The “tradition” of moving it every day and not being able to move it are recent and came from the book. My Grandmother had the set too. One red, one green, and both already worn and dusty in the early 70’s when I played with them. I still haven’t read that book. Need to get that one. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > There are people still alive who wouldn’t eat it, at Thanksgiving or any other time, if it were the only dish on the table. I have never ever been near this dish in my life, not even at the kids’ table. Are you sure that isn’t a regional thing? Or a wet dream of the fried onion people? Meh. It’s not gastronomy, but I’ll have a bite. Mostly for the fried onions. I’d say it’s a pretty widely known recipe. Most families will tend to sneer a little at it, but they keep making it each year and eating the onions off the top. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/30 "2018-03-20T06:01:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m aware it goes back a ways in Mexico and presumably Mexican-Americans have been celebrating it. . . . Not really. If Mexican-Americans celebrate it, it’s mostly because they’re picking it up from non-Mexican Americans. It was originally mostly a local celebration in Puebla, so if someone came from there, they might be into it. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But as an American holiday celebrating Mexican-American culture (the way St Patrick’s Day is for Irish-American culture) it’s only been ten or fifteen years. There certainly were no stores having Cinco de Mayo sales of Corona beer and tamales when I was growing up. Right. It has been promoted by vendors to sell Doritos and beer. And speaking of posers, Corona is the ultimate fake. The company deliberately insinuated its beer into the culture of North Americans on spring break, as though it were some kind of “authentic” Mexican beer, but it never had the intention of being any good. Really it’s the crappiest piss water you can imagine. It’s sold purely on the basis of this highly contrived and totally bogus image, and it anyone who buys it is a dupe. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/31 "2018-03-20T07:08:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Cinco de Mayo is a pretty recent holiday in the American mainstream. I’m aware it goes back a ways in Mexico and presumably Mexican-Americans have been celebrating it. But as an American holiday celebrating Mexican-American culture (the way St Patrick’s Day is for Irish-American culture) it’s only been ten or fifteen years. There certainly were no stores having Cinco de Mayo sales of Corona beer and tamales when I was growing up. It (the wider commercialization of it) has gotta be older than that. Maybe not by much, but in freaking _Budapest_ there was a Mexican-American restaurant that closed off the street and celebrated Cinco de Mayo every year when I lived there back in 1998-2003. (I first attended their Cinco de Mayo party in 2000.) I certainly remember it being somewhat popular at least as far back as the early-to-mid 90s. Heck, Liz Phair has a song from '94 called “Cinco de Mayo” on her album _Whip Smart_, and she’s as suburban whitebread as they get. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/32 "2018-03-20T07:32:05Z")
Spaghetti Carbonara - the classic Italian pasta dish - dates way back to the 1950s. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/33 "2018-03-20T08:52:11Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > Spaghetti Carbonara - the classic Italian pasta dish - dates way back to the 1950s. And tiramisu was invented in the 60s! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/34 "2018-03-20T09:36:34Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Ditto St Patrick’s Day, which never even registered here until less than a decade ago, since Irish immigration wasn’t huge here: now there are parades. It wasn’t even that big a thing in Ireland until the twin powerhouses of American tourism and Guinness advertising blew it up bigly. > [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Werthers Originals and the Coca Cola Christmas Truck are both the subject of (IMO cynical) marketing to try and establish them as ‘traditions’ in the UK. That’s how we got Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer in the first place - he was a 1939 advertising gimmick for Montgomery Ward. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, speaking of the Elf and Christmas traditions, what about the “German” [Christmas pickle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_pickle)? I’m sure most of you have no idea what I’m talking about, but around here in Chicago and I presume elsewhere in at least the Upper Midwest where they have German Christmas traditions and Christkindlmarkts and that sort of thing, there is a Christmas ornament of a pickle that is popular and claims to be a German tradition. Something about finding the Christmas pickle ornament on the tree brings you good luck or somesuch. Anyhow, I had a German girlfriend back in the mid-90s, and I asked her about the tradition, and she had absolutely no fucking clue what I was talking about. Maybe it was extremely regional, I thought. Well, since then the internet has vastly expanded, and it appears to be completely unknown anywhere in Germany, purely some sort of American invention. Both my wife’s and my families had these when we were growing up. Both of us grew up in areas with big German-American communities, so it could either have been started in the US or been brought over and then faded into obscurity in the old country. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/35 "2018-03-20T09:40:27Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > And tiramisu was invented in the 60s! and ciabatta dates from 1982! ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/36 "2018-03-20T10:15:36Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > … Halloween used to be barely a blip for pre-schoolers; now it’s a huge marketing exercise for lollies and bat-themed tat… In Belgium, Halloween was something you saw in American movies. Then, in 1996 or 1997, I noticed some isolated decorations in a few homes. The following year, it was absolutely everywhere, as if we had all secretly decided “yeah, let’s celebrate the shit out of this!” 😕 . The speed with which this well-known but foreign pratice was adopted was mind-boggling . ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/37 "2018-03-20T12:50:50Z")
> [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](#): > > I’m sure it’s possible that ploughmen did eat hunks of bread and cheese with pickled onions for centuries - it’s an easily transportable lunch - but yes: a mid-20th century cheese marketing concept. I’ve always liked the cartoon which appeared some decades ago in the (now defunct) British humorous magazine _Punch_. A complaining pub diner is receiving the reply: “Fish fingers and chips [French fries] – that’s what the ploughman has for lunch.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/38 "2018-03-20T13:52:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Cinco de Mayo is a pretty recent holiday in the American mainstream. I’m aware it goes back a ways in Mexico and presumably Mexican-Americans have been celebrating it. But as an American holiday celebrating Mexican-American culture (the way St Patrick’s Day is for Irish-American culture) it’s only been ten or fifteen years. There certainly were no stores having Cinco de Mayo sales of Corona beer and tamales when I was growing up. In western NY, maybe, but here in Arizona it was around at least back to the 70s. Now, as others have pointed out, like St. Patrick’s Day\* it’s really an Anglo excuse for drinking heavily. Any immigrants joining in is because they like to drink, too; in Mexico I’d suppose it’s on about the same level of celebration as D-day is here. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/39 "2018-03-20T14:54:45Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Both my wife’s and my families had these when we were growing up. Both of us grew up in areas with big German-American communities, so it could either have been started in the US or been brought over and then faded into obscurity in the old country. I allowed that as a possibility as well, but the evidence so far seems to point to it being a completely American invention. You’d think there’d be some record somewhere in Germany of such a tradition, even if it died out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/40 "2018-03-20T16:11:42Z")
On a seasonal note, and again not all that lately come but later than I would have guessed, it appears that [all classic Easter candies, including chocolate eggs and jelly beans, date back only to the 1800s and didn’t really take off till the 20th century](https://www.saveur.com/article/Kitchen/The-History-of-Easter-Candy). Ditto for the so-called “age-old tradition” of the [Christmas peppermint pig](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/24/nyregion/saratogas-peppermint-pig-is-an-unusual-holiday-tradition.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818.md?page=3)