# Johnny-come-lately masquerading as a classic **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818 "2018-03-19T10:28:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/81 "2018-03-23T18:25:13Z")
Just as a touchpoint, I have the WPA Guide to New York City from 1939. Some foods that required descriptions included shish kebab, pilaf, bouillabaisse, ravioli, minestrone, veal scallopini, tortilla, taco, and smorgasbord. Obviously, these were served in ethnic restaurants from much earlier, but they were so unknown to most Americans that they had to be explained. Growing up, there was no fast food within a half-hour’s drive and no Chinese at all. One restaurant served pizza; my introduction to it was the Chef Boyardee kits (with parmesan cheese). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/82 "2018-03-23T18:36:06Z")
A decade is forever in culinary terms. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/83 "2018-03-23T19:15:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > A decade is forever in culinary terms. I only mention the late seventies because I have no firsthand experience of Rochester earlier. Betcha dollars to donuts (or pizzas) that Rochester was filled with pizza places in the 1960s. ---
**Author:** ![jerez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c68b51/32.png) [@jerez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerez)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/84 "2018-03-23T19:15:34Z")
In Hitchcock’s Torn Curtain (1966), the KGB agent Gromek asks Paul Newman’s character about “Pete’s Pizza Parlor” in New York. I just wanted to get that in, although it doesn’t really add much to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/85 "2018-03-23T19:27:19Z")
Here’s a sampling of pages from the Democrat and Chronicle. I typed in the date range “1950-1970” and the subject “pizza”. Pizza is pretty clearly seen as a common, everyday item from 1957 onwards: > **[Search](https://democratandchronicle.newspapers.com/search/#query=pizza&dr_year=1950-1970&offset=9)** > > Search Granted, there are a lot of ads for make-it-yourself pizzas, but what do you expect from an ad-laden newspaper? There are also lots of articles that take pizza-eating for granted. And look at the frequency chart in the upper left – from the late 50s onward “pizza” is pretty common in the paper. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/86 "2018-03-23T20:11:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, the difference between wearing a yellow ribbon to show that a loved one is absent and hanging a yellow ribbon to celebrate their return is a small one, but no matter. “Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree” was a **massive** hit in the 70’s. Tying a yellow ribbon to a fence had about as much to do with wearing a yellow ribbon as hanging a mitten on a fence has to do with wearing mittens My Grandfather (Illinois native) first saw a pizza in pre-war Italy: he didn’t speak the language, but he was still fairly young and adventurous, so he just pointed at what he wanted. As a child in Arizona in the 60’s, the closest thing I saw to a pizza was a melted/baked cheese taco. Since we left the 'states in 68, bean casserole was never part of our Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/87 "2018-03-23T21:11:53Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > McDonalds was a rare luxury when I was young. Eating out happened a little more often when my mother went back to work in the late 70s. We went to Mankato once a year to get our eyes checked (everyone wears glasses), and Mom had us all signed up for the McDonald’s birthday club - so everyone got a free burger, fries and a drink (possibly a shake, it was a long time ago). Otherwise, you only ate out when you turned 16: you got to pick a fancy restaurant (or what passed for it in rural SW Minnesota) and got to eat dinner with just mom and dad - the siblings stayed home. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/88 "2018-03-23T21:11:55Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I only mention the late seventies because I have no firsthand experience of Rochester earlier. > Betcha dollars to donuts (or pizzas) that Rochester was filled with pizza places in the 1960s. It’s fiction, but in the extended version of The Godfather, Fabrizio (a bodyguard to Michael Corleone in Sicily who plants a car bomb that kills Apollonia, Michael’s first wife) is shown in 1958 operating a pizza parlor in Buffalo in 1958. ---
**Author:** ![Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/59ef9b/32.png) [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yorkshire_Pudding)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/89 "2018-03-23T22:44:30Z")
“…and this weekend, a succulent leg of lamb for your Easter roast.” That’s not a thing! OK, springtime, a country with a lot of sheep: yes, eat lamb. Rosemary, garlic, mint, obviously: delicious. Big glass of rioja? Perfect. “Easter roast”? That. Has. Never. Been. A. Thing. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/90 "2018-03-23T23:14:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The soup people actually. From Wikipedia, “The green bean casserole was first created in 1955 by the Campbell Soup Company. Dorcas Reilly led the team that created the recipe while working as a staff member in the home economics department. The inspiration for the dish was ‘to create a quick and easy recipe around two things most Americans always had on hand in the 1950s: green beans and Campbell’s Cream of Mushroom Soup.’” In my family, we used Cream of Celery Soup. Because I hate mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/91 "2018-03-23T23:26:26Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Here’s a sampling of pages from the Democrat and Chronicle. I typed in the date range “1950-1970” and the subject “pizza”. Pizza is pretty clearly seen as a common, everyday item from 1957 onwards: > > [Search - Rochester Democrat and Chronicle Archive](https://democratandchronicle.newspapers.com/search/#query=pizza&dr_year=1950-1970&offset=9) > > Granted, there are a lot of ads for make-it-yourself pizzas, but what do you expect from an ad-laden newspaper? There are also lots of articles that take pizza-eating for granted. > > And look at the frequency chart in the upper left – from the late 50s onward “pizza” is pretty common in the paper. I went through a couple of years of hits from when I was in high school. The vast majority of them were for supermarket frozen pizza or pizza sauce. Pizza places were mentioned, but literally not one ad for a pizza place appeared. I did find an obituary for Joseph Petrillo, the “king of pizzas” who opened in his “pizza establishment and bakery” in 1923. A Petrillo’s Bakery still exists but it seems like the pizza places have recently closed. A 1950 article, however, said there was only one pizza place in the city and that wsn’t his. One thing I noticed was that most of the mentions were west of the Genesee River. The river divides Rochester down the middle and there’s a huge east/west split in the city. It’s hard to imagine how huge now when everybody goes everywhere. I was an eastsider. The river might as well have been the Berlin Wall. Or I might be an anomaly. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/92 "2018-03-23T23:28:53Z")
Amazing that WW2 pre-dates the most traditional and famous of Mexican dishes, [the simple nacho.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachos) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/93 "2018-03-23T23:55:55Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Amazing that WW2 pre-dates the most traditional and famous of Mexican dishes, [the simple nacho.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nachos) That’s actually right about when I would have placed it–maybe slightly later, like the 50s. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/94 "2018-03-24T01:57:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I went through a couple of years of hits from when I was in high school. The vast majority of them were for supermarket frozen pizza or pizza sauce. Pizza places were mentioned, but literally not one ad for a pizza place appeared. I did find an obituary for Joseph Petrillo, the “king of pizzas” who opened in his “pizza establishment and bakery” in 1923. A Petrillo’s Bakery still exists but it seems like the pizza places have recently closed. A 1950 article, however, said there was only one pizza place in the city and that wsn’t his. One thing I noticed was that most of the mentions were west of the Genesee River. The river divides Rochester down the middle and there’s a huge east/west split in the city. It’s hard to imagine how huge now when everybody goes everywhere. I was an eastsider. The river might as well have been the Berlin Wall. > > Or I might be an anomaly. I wouldn’t expect a pizzeria to advertise in the Democrat and Chronicle, but I did find this [The Rochester NY Pizza Blog: A little Rochester pizza history](http://rochesternypizza.blogspot.com/2009/12/little-rochester-pizza-history.html) . You’ll see in the comments that pizza was often sold in Italian bakeries and of course, restaurants might have served pizza without any hint of it in the name or the ads. But I wouldn’t quite say you’re an anomaly - “when you had your first slice of pizza” is not going to depend solely on the availability of pizza where you live. It’s also going to depend on what your parents cook and eat. My parents both grew up in the same neighborhood in Queens, and I guarantee you that my mother had her first slice of pizza long before my father did. For two reasons- one , my mother’s parents were Italian and my father’s parents were Austrian. Her family made pizza at home, (although I don’t know how closely it resembled what is served in pizzerias) and his did not. But the other reason is my paternal grandparents didn’t go for spit and they certainly wouldn’t have spent money on any “Eyetalian” food. I doubt my father ate anything other than home cooking until he got a job and it would not surprise me to find out my grandmother had her first slice of pizza at one of my birthday parties in the late sixties. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/95 "2018-03-24T02:40:18Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > The song “Alice’s Restaurant” had been around for decades, but I never heard of it being called “_The_ Thanksgiving song” until a few years ago. Maybe 2002ish, but no earlier. Until the interwebs got a hold of it, only the serious hippies and 3:00am disc jockeys knew the song. (jockies? Doesn’t look right.) I knew it in high school, in the early eighties. I definitely played it on Thanksgiving way before 2002. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/96 "2018-03-24T13:35:29Z")
Ramblin’ Boy is often credited as a “traditional American folk song,” meaning it’s supposed to be very old. It was written and released in 1964 by Tom Paxton. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/97 "2018-03-24T16:13:49Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I knew it in high school, in the early eighties. I definitely played it on Thanksgiving way before 2002. In the 70s I remember my siblings turning up the radio on Thanksgiving to hear it. It was already a thing just a few years after it was recorded. I thought it was funny but I was too young to understand that it was a protest song.\* I listened to NYC radio and it’s possible that it started there on WNEW. Radio is full of thieves and everyone will steal an idea and claim it to be their own. It may be impossible to determine who first played it. \*Most consider it an anti-war song but I’ve heard Arlo say he considers it an anti-stupid song. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/98 "2018-03-24T16:22:35Z")
This board is the only place I’ve ever heard the “Alice’s Restaurant” - Thanksgiving tradition. I’ve never encountered it in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/99 "2018-03-24T17:44:18Z")
Last year I heard AR on the radio for Thanksgiving, but indeed I had either not heard of that “tradition” before last year or only read about it here, I forget which. ---
**Author:** ![AlonzoSWhitebeard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@AlonzoSWhitebeard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlonzoSWhitebeard)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818/100 "2018-03-27T10:37:42Z")
> [@Yorkshire\_Pudding](#): > > “…and this weekend, a succulent leg of lamb for your Easter roast.” > > That’s not a thing! OK, springtime, a country with a lot of sheep: yes, eat lamb. Rosemary, garlic, mint, obviously: delicious. Big glass of rioja? Perfect. > > “Easter roast”? > > That. Has. Never. Been. A. Thing. Sunday roast is a thing, surely. Easter Sunday is a thing. So Easter roast can be a thing. As is Paschal lamb. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-come-lately-masquerading-as-a-classic/810818.md?page=6)