# Johnny Hart wasn't exactly all that subtle was he? - Infamous menorah & cross strip **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 9, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546 "2010-06-09T15:44:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/61 "2010-06-11T04:16:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s not a straightforward pun on “lunatic”? That’s how I read it. Again, notice the oddly gratuitous detail - the _star_ next to the “crescent moon.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/62 "2010-06-11T04:18:39Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > Again, notice the oddly gratuitous detail - the _star_ next to the “crescent moon.” There is no “cresent moon” in the picture, just a turtle’s finger. The star seems to be a conventional way to indicate “ouchie” in a comic. I obviously see what you’re getting at, but I think it’s stretching. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/63 "2010-06-11T04:24:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s not a straightforward pun on “lunatic”? That’s how I read it. Which is more likely? A. It’s an innocent pun involving a reference to a specifically _crescent_ moon because that works best for the joke, and a tiny drawing of a star because that’s the standard cartoon convention for indicating pain, or B. Johnny Hart in his dotage was witty enough to craft jokes with two entirely separate levels of meaning. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/64 "2010-06-11T04:25:26Z")
I should say, the one thing that does seem a little incongruous to me is not the star, but the use of the word “crescent.” That does seem a bit unnecessary. edit: **Biffy** - Sorry, your post wasn’t up when I responded. I would say both are equally likely. Perhaps I’m not giving Hart enough credit and he’s much more crafty than I previously thought. But if it’s a slam on Islam, it’s a really subtle and ineffective one. I still vote pun with coincidental alternate reading. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/65 "2010-06-11T04:32:22Z")
On your side, you do have Pulitzer Prize winning humorist [Gene Weingarten](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/27/DI2006062700793.html) opining rather confidently that the double meaning was intentional. He does, however, read even more subtlety into Hart’s strip, saying it wasn’t a smear of Islam, but rather of Islam terror ("I do not see this cartoon as hatred of Islam - it is a statement about Crescent Moons that BITE, which is to say, Islamic terrorism. I don’t see anything wrong with Johnny Hart condemning Islamic terrorists. ") ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/66 "2010-06-11T04:33:55Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I should say, the one thing that does seem a little incongruous to me is not the star, but the use of the word “crescent.” That does seem a bit unnecessary. The turtle can’t just say “moon-shaped”; that would suggest a _full_ moon, and that the bite is simply round. Nobody calls anything round “moon-shaped.” (Well, except for round faces.) He could say “half-moon-shaped,” but even that sounds like a slightly odd way to describe a semicircle. The crescent moon, however, is the essence of mooniness. If you wanted to sketch something instantly recognizable as the moon, just a quick, simple representation, wouldn’t you naturally make it a crescent? > [@pulykamell](#): > > On your side, you do have Pulitzer Prize winning humorist [Gene Weingarten](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/06/27/DI2006062700793.html) opining rather confidently that the double meaning was intentional. It certainly wasn’t my intention to align myself with that “side.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/67 "2010-06-11T04:43:00Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > It certainly wasn’t my intention to align myself with that “side.” Whoops. Got the characters in this thread mixed up a bit. (And by “side” I mean “side of the argument.”) As for the crescent moon analysis, that’s the same line of logic I was following. But I think you could get away with the term “moon-shaped” without confusing readers. That said, even if Hart dropped the “crescent,” I’m sure there’d still be plenty of people reading into it, anyway. It’s still a star and a moon and, like you said, when you think of a moon, what shape do you think of? A crescent. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/68 "2010-06-11T04:53:14Z")
You can read the _Washington Post_ article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man’s true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That’s where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/69 "2010-06-11T05:28:38Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > You can read the _Washington Post_ article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man’s true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That’s where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry. Well, if you’re a fundamentalist, isn’t anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus Christ as their savior going to Hell? Anyhow, I’m well aware of Hart’s theological leanings. I simply don’t think the outhouse strip is a clever dual-layered joke. I do think more of an argument can be made for the turtle/crescent moon/lunatic joke. And, if it is indeed an intentional double meaning joke, I think it’s quite a clever one and have to give Hart credit for it. But I’m not convinced it’s intentional. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/70 "2010-06-11T05:34:51Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > The menorah association is just so weird, though. I could see if it was just a passover thing but the menorah is only associated with Hanukkah…right? > . Nope. It’s an all purpose symbol of Judaism, and before WWII it was the primary symbol associated with the Jewish people\*. You are thinking of the Hanukiah which is a special type of menorah which has extra candles to symbolize the miracle of the oil lasting eight days. > **[Temple menorah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menorah_%28Temple%29)** > > The Temple menorah (/məˈnɔːrə/; Biblical Hebrew: מְנוֹרָה, romanized: mənorā, Tiberian Hebrew /ˌmənoːˈʀɔː/) is a seven-branched candelabrum that is described in the Hebrew Bible and later ancient sources as having been used in the Tabernacle and the Temple in Jerusalem. > Since ancient times, it has served as a symbol representing the Jews and Judaism in both the Land of Israel and the Jewish diaspora. It became the State of Israel's official emblem when it was founded in 1948. > According to the... As a Jew I felt like the menorah and cross strip was a clear swipe at Judaism, but then as a Jew I am a bit sensitive to this sort of thing. It’s been less than four months since we were asked to leave daycare because they found out our daughter was jewish, so it’s not like people aren’t still hateful bastards even in this day and age. I have to think that Hart knew exactly what he was doing with that strip, that symbolism, and the timing of the strip’s release. In fact, it’s because that strip was so very clear that I am not really sure that the other strip was a swipe at Islam. I am not convinced that he could be that subtle. \*If I am remembering it correctly it wasn’t until the concentration camps that the Star of David became an all purpose symbol for Judaism, before that it was more a symbol of Zionism. My memory might be a bit rusty, though wiki does seem to back me up. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/71 "2010-06-11T06:01:07Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I simply don’t think the outhouse strip is a clever dual-layered joke. I don’t think it is either. I think it’s a single-layered religious or politico-religious commentary. I would guess that by the time of the strip from three years later he realized he had to put some form of actual joke in there to cover himself. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/72 "2010-06-11T06:05:01Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > I don’t think it is either. I think it’s a single-layered religious or politico-religious commentary. I would guess that by the time of the strip from three years later he realized he had to put some form of actual joke in there to cover himself. I guess we’ll just disagree, then. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/73 "2010-06-11T06:28:17Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > As a Jew I felt like the menorah and cross strip was a clear swipe at Judaism, but then as a Jew I am a bit sensitive to this sort of thing. It’s been less than four months **since we were asked to leave daycare because they found out our daughter was Jewish** , so it’s not like people aren’t still hateful bastards even in this day and age. > . (bolding mine) What? Unless you deliberately enrolled your child in an overtly religiously oriented (assumedly Christian) daycare how could this ever happen? ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/74 "2010-06-11T12:13:33Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > You can read the _Washington Post_ article on Johnny Hart from the April 4, 1999 edition to get a glimpse of the man’s true feelings about Jews and Muslims. (The article must be purchased). That’s where Wiki gets that charming quote in their Johnny Hart entry. I agree that Hart was a bigot, but he was incapable of being subtle. Look at the Menorah strip, that was about as overt as you can get. Your two examples are just too subtle for Hart. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/75 "2010-06-11T14:46:21Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > The crescent moon, however, is the essence of mooniness. Or [this guy](http://antimoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rev-moon.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/76 "2010-06-11T15:21:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I do think more of an argument can be made for the turtle/crescent moon/lunatic joke. And, if it is indeed an intentional double meaning joke, I think it’s quite a clever one and have to give Hart credit for it. But I’m not convinced it’s intentional. If one accepts that the turtle strip is a Muslim reference it would be hard to maintain that the earlier outhouse strip was not as well. What would be the chances that Hart would get into all kinds of hot water, have his strip pulled, etc. for making an innocuous gag that people imagined was anti-Muslim… and then three years later make an _intentionally_ pointed Muslim reference in the same strip? If the turtle strip had come first & was the only controversial one I might be on the fence about it - provided that I didn’t also know the following: that Hart was a Christian fundamentalist what he was willing to say about Muslims to a major newspaper that he was in the habit of making apocalyptically-minded comments, such as his thought that the world might end by 2010 that he frequently includes religious commentary in his strips that he had already published the “unsubtle” Menorah strip ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/77 "2010-06-11T15:34:51Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t really get either of them. Can someone explain? > > I get that it’s a menorah, but why? Evidently Jesus died during Backwards Hannukah. Though having cavemen know about Jesus is interesting chronology, even assuming B.C. stands for “Benny Claude” or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/78 "2010-06-11T15:43:39Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I eventually stopped reading _B.C._ because of this and other examples of brute proselytizing…and also because Hart was so busy doing this that he forgot to be funny. There it is. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/79 "2010-06-11T16:05:25Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > If one accepts that the turtle strip is a Muslim reference But I _don’t_ accept the turtle strip as a Muslim reference. Like I said, we’re going to have to disagree on this. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546/80 "2010-06-11T16:17:14Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > If the turtle strip had come first & was the only controversial one I might be on the fence about it - provided that I didn’t also know the following: > > that Hart was a Christian fundamentalist > what he was willing to say about Muslims to a major newspaper Okay, I’ll bite. What DID he say about Muslims to a major newspaper? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/johnny-hart-wasnt-exactly-all-that-subtle-was-he-infamous-menorah-cross-strip/542546.md?page=5)