# \*\*\*Join the SDMB panel of experts for live debate coverage - 9/26/2016\*\*\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 26, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946 "2016-09-26T17:39:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/901 "2016-09-27T22:22:55Z")
On the Iraq thing again, think about the point he’s trying to prove. It would be to demonstrate his sober judgement. Meanwhile, he’s talking about how there wouldn’t be a war if he started blowing Iranian ships out of the water for making rude gestures. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/902 "2016-09-27T22:29:12Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > On the Iraq thing again, think about the point he’s trying to prove. It would be to demonstrate his sober judgement. Meanwhile, he’s talking about how there wouldn’t be a war if he started blowing Iranian ships out of the water for making rude gestures. And of course, if we had just stolen all their oil then everything would be peaceful over there. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/903 "2016-09-27T22:33:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think “fiasco” is slightly overstated. Trump lost but he didn’t outright embarrass himself. Au contraire! I found his performance to be extremely embarrassing. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/904 "2016-09-27T22:51:40Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I think it was at the end of the debate, but it may have been Trump talking to a reporter afterwards (I was watching CNN if that matters) that Trump went on about the ads Clinton is running that say terrible, just terrible things about him. > > What ads is he referring to? I live in Illinois, so the Clinton campaign isn’t running a lot of advertisement here. The only 2 I remember are 1) a bunch of well-know Republicans talking about how bad Trump is and how they can’t support him, and 2) one which is primarily video of Trump himself saying some of his misogynist/racist comments. > > In neither case did Clinton say anything bad about him – it was either his “fellow” Republicans, or himself. So what are the ads that say such horrible things? I’m in Pennsylvania, and have been seeing quite a few ads. I was a bit baffled by this as well. Mostly the ones I remember are using video of mr trump himself, not anyone else saying things about him. Right now the main one seems to be mr trump talking about women with clips of women woven in. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/905 "2016-09-27T22:56:24Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I think it was at the end of the debate, but it may have been Trump talking to a reporter afterwards (I was watching CNN if that matters) that Trump went on about the ads Clinton is running that say terrible, just terrible things about him. > > What ads is he referring to? I live in Illinois, so the Clinton campaign isn’t running a lot of advertisement here. The only 2 I remember are 1) a bunch of well-know Republicans talking about how bad Trump is and how they can’t support him, and 2) one which is primarily video of Trump himself saying some of his misogynist/racist comments. > > In neither case did Clinton say anything bad about him – it was either his “fellow” Republicans, or himself. So what are the ads that say such horrible things? Trump said a thing was happening, and you went looking for the thing. Have you learned nothing? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/906 "2016-09-27T23:00:07Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > I think it’s very telling when people point out how “smug” Clinton looked last night but fail to mention how Trump looked. The man came right out and said Clinton doesn’t have 'the look" of a president. He sniffed and rolled his eyes and squinted and snorted. He was so cocky and smarmy and condescending, but Clinton was smug?! I guess that’s the way it works. SHE looks smug. HE looks confident. I thought he started out smug from the get-go: “Now, in all fairness to Secretary Clinton – yes, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It’s very important to me.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/907 "2016-09-27T23:03:24Z")
Apparently the #trumpwon hashtag originated from [St. Petersburg Russia](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtYCv3oUEAAgsvm.jpg:large) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/908 "2016-09-27T23:04:13Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > No nuance, absolutely, plus, there’s no room for changing your mind. For learning and changing and growing. If you thought “a” ten years ago, but now you believe “b,” then YOULIEDYOULIEDYOULIED. I seem to recall that recently someone pulled out something Hillary said in college and claimed that she lied (either then or now…I don’t remember) because she believes something different now. I have nothing against folks changing when new information comes to their attention, and wish it happened more often – but Trump, near as I can tell, wants to argue that he was right all along and came out against the Iraq war before it started. And, near as I can tell, _“Yeah, I guess so. You know, I wish it was, I wish the first time it was done correctly”_ was his sole for-or-against public statement before the war started – though he followed up, months later, by refusing to pick a side either way, saying only that if Bush is going to attack, he should attack, instead of talking and talking and talking first. And then his first public statement after the war starts is – to say that Wall Street is already reacting as if it’s “a tremendous success from a military standpoint, and I think this is really nothing compared to what you’re going to see after the war is over.” If he wants credit for later realizing it was a mistake, that’s fine – but he doesn’t want that; he wants credit for having realized it then. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/909 "2016-09-27T23:05:33Z")
Yeah, Trump’s big mouth has put Clinton in a pretty sweet position. She can run negative ads without actually saying anything negative herself, just run the tape. She does seem to have gotten off her ass though and run a few positive ads about herself finally though. ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/910 "2016-09-27T23:05:46Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > I thought this had already been shown to be a lie, that the IRS had already publicaly said nothing was stopping him releasing any tax returns, so if he said this in the debate was he not immediately called out on it? He made a few rambling remarks that sounded to me like he was invoking his lawyers’ request. Although, I don’t understand _why_ a lawyer would suggest such an action, since it’s not like he would be revealing anything the IRS doesn’t already know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/911 "2016-09-27T23:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently the #trumpwon hashtag originated from St. Petersburg Russia Who’s our designated intertubes geek? I’m not knowledgeable enough to scope this. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/912 "2016-09-27T23:18:00Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > On the Iraq thing again, think about the point he’s trying to prove. It would be to demonstrate his sober judgement. Meanwhile, he’s talking about how there wouldn’t be a war if he started blowing Iranian ships out of the water for making rude gestures. It’s just not who he is, though. He would have to be a different person entirely. He was trying to make something similar to the point you’re talking about. He doesn’t have the verbal intelligence to do it effectively, though. And he can’t do it unless it conforms to his ideas about himself: > [@](#): > > The record shows that I’m right. When I did an interview with Howard Stern, very lightly, first time anyone’s asked me that, I said, very lightly, I don’t know, maybe, who knows? Essentially. I then did an interview with Neil Cavuto. We talked about the economy is more important. I then spoke to Sean Hannity, which everybody refuses to call Sean Hannity. I had numerous conversations with Sean Hannity at Fox. And Sean Hannity said – and he called me the other day – and I spoke to him about it – he said you were totally against the war, because he was for the war. For him, it isn’t as simple as saying “I wasn’t able to make that call, at the time, so I spoke without really having the information I needed, but then later I changed my mind.” It’s anathema to everything that he is. He can’t not have been right at all times. The best you’re ever going to get is him tangentially talking about what was happening while he tells you that he’s always been right. If it were any different, everything about this campaign would be different. When he reads that quote up there, I bet you he thinks, “Exactly. I was right about the war,” and it doesn’t for a second occur to him that he didn’t actually say anything, because the important point is right up front, very concrete and very simple. It’s why he talks about his club in Palm Beach and thinks he’s talking about racial justice, and why he doesn’t bat an eye talking about how he got the birth certificate for the American people and then dropped it for more important issues _right in the face_ of someone who is pointing out how that is manifestly untrue, and why he can say without hesitation that fucking people out of their money was a smart thing to do, even though this is a presidential debate. He does not and can not engage with these ideas the way that you’re imagining he should. He thinks about how he can be enriched by something, and then does what he thinks he needs to do to make that happen, and if you ask him about it that’s what he will tell you. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/913 "2016-09-27T23:18:52Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I saw the poll and that thought immediately jumped in my head. I think a few of us have even kicked that number around here a few times IIRC. I obviously don’t have any hard data but it seems to me that the only people who truly thought Trump won or in any way looked good were hardcore partisans. Hell even Fox News is declaring Hillary the winner and saying he wasn’t prepared. > > I don’t know if Hillary improved her likeability and trustworthiness quotients – maybe just slightly so if at all. She will need to improve those if she possibly can. But the key achievements were that she looked strong, so we can stop talking about her health now. She also made Trump look weak and unqualified on what might have been the single most important debate stage in decades. Yes. I enjoyed [John Podhoretz’s postmortem](http://nypost.com/2016/09/27/trumps-debate-incompetence-a-slap-in-the-face-to-his-supporters/) (he is a conservative, BTW, and no fan of Hillary). Especially loved his quip about “the vanity and laziness that led him to think he could wing the most important 95 minutes of his life”. Spot on. It’s funny how many people thought this was misdirection from the Trump camp–that he was probably secretly preparing like mad. I never thought so, because of that very vanity and laziness. And speaking of the Trump camp’s preparations, I’m still mystified by why the otherwise extremely canny Kellyanne Conway did the opposite of lowering expectations in the days leading up to the debate. For example, here’s what she said the day before the debate, on ABC’s _This Week with George Stephanopoulos_: > [@](#): > > I can understand why the Clinton camp is very nervous because Donald Trump has got great present stature. He’s a brilliant debater. Newt Gingrich put it best: the former Speaker recently said Donald Trump is the best debater he’s ever seen. He’s like the Babe Ruth of debating. He really shows up and swings and does a great job. 😕 This is more like the kind of pregame trash talk you hear from athletes. But athletes don’t win or lose based on audiences and the media grading on a curve. ETA: Just heard on a podcast that a reporter was heading into the spin room behind one of Trump’s spinners. He said you could tell Trump lost, unequivocally, because the spinner was slump-shouldered and muttered to himself before entering: “Okay, let’s get this the fuck over with”. LMAO ---
**Author:** ![leftfield6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leftfield6/32/18780_2.png) [@leftfield6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leftfield6)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/914 "2016-09-27T23:40:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Apparently the #trumpwon hashtag originated from [St. Petersburg Russia](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtYCv3oUEAAgsvm.jpg:large) As much as I would like that to be true, apparently [it is not.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/27/that-viral-image-showing-trumpwon-starting-in-russia-is-probably-fake/) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/915 "2016-09-27T23:46:20Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > We should not forget that Hillary said a lot of stupid things too, only these formed her actual economic policy. Half a billion solar panels replacing the entire fossil fuel production system? Free daycare and education for everyone? And she’s going to pay for all this by getting the ‘rich’ to just pay their fair share? America becoming a ‘green energy superpower’? This is fantasy, not serious policy. You should probably look at the installed solar base in other nations. Germany has over 38 gigawatts installed capacity. “On 25 May 2012, a Saturday, solar power reached a new record with feeding 22 GW, as much as can be produced by 20 nuclear reactors, into the German power grid. This met 50% of the nation’s mid-day electricity demand on that day.” That was over four years ago, and they have 70% more solar power. And this is freaking _Germany_. Is that a nation you think of for solar power? Don’t you think that we can do the same? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/916 "2016-09-28T00:03:28Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You should probably look at the installed solar base in other nations. Germany has over 38 gigawatts installed capacity. “On 25 May 2012, a Saturday, solar power reached a new record with feeding 22 GW, as much as can be produced by 20 nuclear reactors, into the German power grid. This met 50% of the nation’s mid-day electricity demand on that day.” That was over four years ago, and they have 70% more solar power. > > And this is freaking _Germany_. Is that a nation you think of for solar power? > > Don’t you think that we can do the same? Definitely not. We don’t have the area or insolance to support such levels of solar power. We’d have to be a large country with a lot of desert area. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/917 "2016-09-28T00:56:50Z")
Insolance? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/918 "2016-09-28T00:57:25Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You should probably look at the installed solar base in other nations. Germany has over 38 gigawatts installed capacity. “On 25 May 2012, a Saturday, solar power reached a new record with feeding 22 GW, as much as can be produced by 20 nuclear reactors, into the German power grid. This met 50% of the nation’s mid-day electricity demand on that day.” That was over four years ago, and they have 70% more solar power. > > And this is freaking _Germany_. Is that a nation you think of for solar power? > > Don’t you think that we can do the same? Looking at Wikipedia, \<7% of Germany’s power was solar generated in 2014. A one day burst is interesting but not remotely a valid argument for reliance on solar power. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/919 "2016-09-28T01:09:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Looking at Wikipedia, \<7% of Germany’s power was solar generated in 2014. A one day burst is interesting but not remotely a valid argument for reliance on solar power. The point was that the capacity is growing, and Germany is not just relying on solar, but wind too. They are depending less on oil and coal as time goes by. > **[Germany’s energy consumption and power mix in charts](https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts)** > > Key facts on the status of Germany’s energy mix, as well as developments in energy and power production and usage since 1990 - charts and data links. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946/920 "2016-09-28T01:17:19Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yes. I enjoyed [John Podhoretz’s postmortem](http://nypost.com/2016/09/27/trumps-debate-incompetence-a-slap-in-the-face-to-his-supporters/) (he is a conservative, BTW, and no fan of Hillary). Especially loved his quip about “the vanity and laziness that led him to think he could wing the most important 95 minutes of his life”. Spot on. It’s funny how many people thought this was misdirection from the Trump camp–that he was probably secretly preparing like mad. I never thought so, because of that very vanity and laziness. I don’t see why a third possibility isn’t wholly plausible; if not likely: He prepared, and failed. Trump is 70 years old and has never done anything like this before. His performances in the Republican primary debates were lacklustre, but he got by by virtue of being up against a large and lousy field. His public appearances, in which he acts more or less the same way but even more agitated and aggressive, are full of Trumpists who cheer him o,n rather than people viewing him critically. Even if he prepared for a month, why would we expect him to do well? You can’t get good at something in a short period of time. If you gave me a YEAR to practice I would not be able to defeat Serena Williams in a tennis match, or Rory McIlroy in a round of golf, or a chess grandmaster in a game of chess, and I could not beat Hillary Clinton in a televised debate, even without Trump’s baggage train. With a year of practice I would still not have the business savoire-faire of Warren Buffett. These things are very, very hard to do. _Even had Trump been working his ass off I would still have expected him to perform poorly._ As it was he was actually a bit worse than I expected, but within a reasonable distance of what I figured he’d do. I do not think it at all accidental that Trump actually started out okay; it was all Trump bullshit, but he was effective at spouting his bullshit, which works because facts don’t matter all that much. So while he was saying pretty much what he had planned to say, things were fine. It was as Clinton slashed and jabbed that his performance fell apart; he had answers but seemed overwhelmed by the speed things were happening, and even his good bullets were fired at the wrong time or into the floor. (I will join a million other observers in my slack-jawed amazement that Trump didn’t make the cybersecurity portion of the debate all about ripping Clinton’s email shenanigans.) That is precisely what I would expect from an inexperienced debater who had prepared - coasting fine at the beginning and then, as the old military saying goes, your plan stops mattering when you make contact with the enemy. Politics is hard. Trump has ridden a wave of populism to be incredibly close to the White House but guess what; a presidential TV debate is _incredibly_ difficult to pull off. Barack Obama, of all people, got the shit kicked out of him by Mitt Romney in 2012 Debate 1. Why would you think Trump’s performance was the result of a refusal to prepare when it’s so much more simply and logically explained by the fact that he is a rookie who was up against a seasoned veteran? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/join-the-sdmb-panel-of-experts-for-live-debate-coverage-9-26-2016/766946.md?page=47)