# Joining a well-regulated militia in the US. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487 "2012-05-20T02:49:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/1 "2012-05-20T02:49:59Z")
> [@US Constitution](#): > > A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. So, I was sitting at home earlier this week sipping a little fine Scotch and admiring my impressive gun collection. It occurred to me that maybe I should be using my guns to help the community rather than treating them as a fetish object, so I called my sister and asked her what she thought. She told me that the reason that we are allowed to have guns is that a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. I asked her what I should do, and she told me, “Why not _join_ the militia? You can improve your skill and discipline and meet new friends while protecting the community! Wouldn’t that be great!”. So I figured that this was a good idea, so I went around town asking where the militia met. I dreamt of standing watch on them thar hills making sure that those pot-smoking islamofacist commie pinko hippie cheerleaders with bazookas that live over Martin’s Ridge don’t cause trouble again, and lost myself in the fantasy of keeping my gun next to the door ready to hear the battle cry at 4 am, “The Canadian Forces crossed the border 3 hours ago! Grab your gun and ammo and rally at the First Baptist Church, we must protect the road to the south. If the Canadians can take the water tower at Glendale the Tri-County Area will fall. THEY SHALL NOT PASS!” It turns out that we don’t seem to _have_ a local militia at all! I logged in to Al Gore’s fancy electronic communications system that my son said was called the “Internet” for some reason and searched around, but it seems many of the “militias” active in the US are anti-government revolutionary fundie survivalist groups of questionable legality. I want to join a well regulated, loyal, law abiding militia that cooperates with local police and other civil authorities. Have I misunderstood the reality of “the militia” today? Is my local police department the actual militia that the Constitution speaks of? I’m clearly embellishing this story a little bit, but the question remains. Can I “join the militia” today in a meaningful way? Nothing in this question involves how to commit or get away with a firearms or sedition offense. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/2 "2012-05-20T02:57:38Z")
Isn’t the [National Guard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_States) the “well regulated militia” today? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/3 "2012-05-20T02:59:24Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Can I “join the militia” today in a meaningful way? Yes. Every state has both an army and air national guard. Many have “state defense forces.” And if you’re a man between the age of 18 and 45, you’re already a member of the unorganized militia of the United States (although that’s probably so unorganized that it’s not well-regulated). Congratulations. And in some states, you stay in your state’s unorganized militia for life. Woohoo. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/4 "2012-05-20T03:04:15Z")
Here’s a thread started by an SDMB member who hosts militia training sessions: > **[Ask the Militia Guy!](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=151573)** > > There seems to be an abundance of “Ask the XXX” threads lately, so I thought I’d throw my hat in the ring. Yes, militia. You know, the plaid-shirted, gun-toting good ‘ol boys\[sup\]1\[/sup\] training for the day the balloon flies. Go ahead, I’ll... ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/5 "2012-05-20T03:10:52Z")
Not closely following gun threads, what is the current sate of Constitutional jurisprudence that avoids the logical implications of posts 2 and 3? That is, those posts (on their own) eviscerate the notion that a private citizen has a right to bear arms. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/6 "2012-05-20T03:24:53Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Not closely following gun threads, what is the current sate of Constitutional jurisprudence that avoids the logical implications of posts 2 and 3? That is, those posts (on their own) eviscerate the notion that a private citizen has a right to bear arms. One question I have is whether the historic militias in the US and British North America were always organized by governmental power e.g. a “Territorial Militia of Kansas” organized by the territorial government, or a “Manhattan and Brooklyn Combined Militia” organized by the City of New York, or whether there were militias organized by private community groups such as churches, nonprofits, or even local for-profit companies, such as a “St. John’s Lutheran Church Community Defense Force” or a “Elks Lodge #322 Armed Citizen Patrol Militia of the Tri-County Area”. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/7 "2012-05-20T03:36:51Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > One question I have is whether the historic militias in the US and British North America were always organized by governmental power e.g. a “Territorial Militia of Kansas” organized by the territorial government, or a “Manhattan and Brooklyn Combined Militia” organized by the City of New York, or whether there were militias organized by private community groups such as churches, nonprofits, or even local for-profit companies, such as a “St. John’s Lutheran Church Community Defense Force” or a “Elks Lodge #322 Armed Citizen Patrol Militia of the Tri-County Area”. Here is how the militia are defined by statute in New York: > [@](#): > > ``` > § 2. Militia of the state; division and composition. 1. The militia of > > ``` > > the state shall be divided into the organized militia, the state reserve > list, the state retired list and the unorganized militia. The organized > militia shall be composed of the New York army national guard; the New > York air national guard; the inactive national guard; the New York naval > militia; the New York guard whenever such a state force shall be duly > organized and such additional forces as may be created by the governor. > 2. The unorganized militia shall consist of all able-bodied male > residents of the state between the ages of seventeen and forty-five who > are not serving in any force of the organized militia or who are not on > the state reserve list or the state retired list and who are or who have > declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, > subject, however, to such exemptions from military duty as are created > by the laws of the United States. Many states have similarly defined unorganized militia. So not all militia are organized by government powers; most of it is quite unorganized indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/8 "2012-05-20T03:39:04Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > One question I have is whether the historic militias in the US and British North America were always organized by governmental power e.g. a “Territorial Militia of Kansas” organized by the territorial government, or a “Manhattan and Brooklyn Combined Militia” organized by the City of New York, or whether there were militias organized by private community groups such as churches, nonprofits, or even local for-profit companies, such as a “St. John’s Lutheran Church Community Defense Force” or a “Elks Lodge #322 Armed Citizen Patrol Militia of the Tri-County Area”. So, its’ only happenstance that the only people who tend to gather together and stockpile weapons with the intent of guarding the watchtowers re loonies. That if a group wanted to get together and form an armed citizens’ watch group (no intent to reference the current debacle), they could only do so if they first had the right to private gun ownership secured. This seems at odds with the previous answers; the weapons of the national guard are not the soldier’s to keep, nor, I presume, are soldiers allowed to bring in their own weapons to training (are they really called soldiers? Or is that only when they’ve been called up to do something in a combat zone?). Back to the citizen’s watch group–if you wanted to form one, do any states have regulations on the books for doing so? If a state passed a law that said “any gathering of people in possession of firearms with the intent to act as a coordinated body with a modicum of reliance on said weapons, must follow these Very Restrictive Guidelines,” would that pass Constitutional muster under the ‘well regulated’ bit? I presume not, but don’t know why–I hope Dopers more familiar with the case law can summarize and cite. ETA: had not read Friedo’s post before hitting submit. Apologies if this was answered. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/9 "2012-05-20T03:40:33Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Here is how the militia are defined by statute in New York: > > Many states have similarly defined unorganized militia. So not all militia are organized by government powers; most of it is quite unorganized indeed. So, in a sense those who are members of the unorganized militia are _bona-fide militia members_ who are not issued a firearm or ammo by the State, right? So where do they _get_ a gun and ammo? Maybe the local gun shop? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/10 "2012-05-20T03:46:36Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So, in a sense those who are members of the unorganized militia are _bona-fide militia members_ who are not issued a firearm or ammo by the State, right? So where do they _get_ a gun and ammo? Maybe the local gun shop? Well, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/11 "2012-05-20T04:11:35Z")
Historically the state militias have become the individual state national guards, which can all be called up to federal military service. If you meet the relatively generous criteria you can join them, and you’ll get a lot cooler weapons to practice on than you can keep at home. Many States (Virginia is one) also have “State Defense Forces” which are state military forces outside the NG system that can’t be Federalized. You could join that if you wished. Finally, in martial-speak of the 18th and 19th century (more historic/legal speak afterward) the “militia” just referred to the male citizenry within fighting age who were not part of the regular standing army. The idea with them being allowed to own private firearms is the United States Government in 1789 wasn’t exactly high rolling, so if called up militia didn’t BYOG they would have been fielding a fighting force without modern weaponry since stockpiling and buying enough weapons to field a hypothetical militia call up was beyond the government’s ability at that time. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/12 "2012-05-20T04:12:37Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So, in a sense those who are members of the unorganized militia are _bona-fide militia members_ who are not issued a firearm or ammo by the State, right? So where do they _get_ a gun and ammo? Maybe the local gun shop? Yeah, where do you think militia in the revolutionary war got weapons? They could barely equip the Continental Army properly, some purchased weapons may have made it into militia units, but by and large they needed to bring their own or they would have had problems. ---
**Author:** ![oliversarmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/eb8c5e/32.png) [@oliversarmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oliversarmy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/13 "2012-05-20T04:24:05Z")
“A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” I would think that any militia outside the purvey of the government does not have the constitutional right to organize a unit of armed citizens for whatever reason. By the same token, all citizens have the right to keep and bear arms for any reason. That’s what it says: “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Citizens have the right to own arms, but only the government has the right to organize them for purposes of a militia. And around and around we go. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/14 "2012-05-20T04:27:46Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So, in a sense those who are members of the unorganized militia are _bona-fide militia members_ who are not issued a firearm or ammo by the State, right? So where do they _get_ a gun and ammo? Maybe the local gun shop? The unorganized militia is just everybody able to fight; aka, adult men who aren’t disabled or too old. It’s the militia in potentia; the people who can be drafted if the government needs to do it. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/15 "2012-05-20T19:27:11Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So, in a sense those who are members of the unorganized militia are _bona-fide militia members_ who are not issued a firearm or ammo by the State, right? So where do they _get_ a gun and ammo? Maybe the local gun shop? Yes. And now we understand why gun laws that apply to private citizens have second amendment implications. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/16 "2012-05-20T19:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Giles** : > > Isn’t the National Guard the “well regulated militia” today? Well, they used to be, but nowadays the National Guard is just an extension of the federal military. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/17 "2012-05-20T19:40:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The unorganized militia is just everybody able to fight; aka, adult men who aren’t disabled or too old. It’s the militia in potentia; the people who can be drafted if the government needs to do it. When in this thread did we switch the topic from “well-regulated militia” to “unorganized militia”? I’m not finding the latter term in the Constitution, so what’s up(besides an attempt to loosen the parameters just a mite)? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/18 "2012-05-20T19:56:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > When in this thread did we switch the topic from “well-regulated militia” to “unorganized militia”? I’m not finding the latter term in the Constitution, so what’s up(besides an attempt to loosen the parameters just a mite)? Ignoring all recent case law about militia membership being necessary, couldn’t the unorganized militia be called up in an emergency, be drilled and well regulated in a few days, and therefore need to previously have possessed arms? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/19 "2012-05-20T20:30:12Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Ignoring all recent case law about militia membership being necessary, couldn’t the unorganized militia be called up in an emergency, be drilled and well regulated in a few days, and therefore need to previously have possessed arms? Wouldn’t that mean the government would have to know who is armed with what to properly organize this “unorganized militia” at a moment’s notice? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487/20 "2012-05-20T20:42:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Wouldn’t that mean the government would have to know who is armed with what to properly organize this “unorganized militia” at a moment’s notice? Possibly. But if that were the purpose of registration, there would be no need for names, gun serial numbers, or fees. Just that X number of people own Y type of guns. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-a-well-regulated-militia-in-the-us/622487.md?page=2)