# Joining the US Army as an officer out of college, Iraq War era **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217 "2015-09-14T16:43:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217/21 "2015-09-15T23:52:35Z")
> [@Grsz11](#): > > I would assume this is all subject to available commissions, after West Point and ROTC grads, correct? Yes but there is always a need for new 2LTs. As you move up in rank you either get promoted or get shown the door. There is always a need to fill the bottom rung of the ladder. Although it doesn’t pertain to the situation in the OP there are also direct commissions. If there is a particular skill that the Army needs they can wave a magic wand and make you an officer. Then you just have to go through a quick school to learn which hand to salute with and how to put your boots on. In general this path is for doctors, lawyers and chaplains. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217/22 "2015-09-16T00:13:51Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > there are also direct commissions. If there is a particular skill that the Army needs they can wave a magic wand and make you an officer. Then you just have to go through a quick school to learn which hand to salute with and how to put your boots on. In general this path is for doctors, lawyers and chaplains. I presume those specialties are not subject to the up-or-out system? > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Keep in mind that compulsory attendance and mandatory graduation are two different things. Plenty of them do not even make it past the first week. Others may get hurt in later phases. Regardless of their reason for not passing, they need to keep trying to go back throughout the early part of their career or they will not be competitive at all in their year-group. So, an infantry officer could be competitive in their year group even if they tried 3-4 and always failed? When can they stop trying and not have their career suffer for it? At what level, if any, do infantry NCOs get pressure to attend airborne/Ranger school for promotion? > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > An infantry officer, on the other hand, is expected to have completed Ranger School and Airborne School. Airborne school: Because you have to suck as an infantry officer to flunk out of that (notwithstanding injuries)? Something else? Range school: Because of the small wars focus of the US Army & Marines and the desire to make infantry more like special forces? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217/23 "2015-09-16T02:17:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you saying that promotions come with an automatic re-upping requirement (presumably, you could decline the promotion and not sign on for another tour)? He already answered the question pertaining to officers. They don’t suffer a service obligation for promotions. That is not the same for enlisted soldiers. Enlisted soldiers in senior grades have to reenlist to meet service obligations or they will not be promoted. So if a SSG makes the promotion list, but his contract is up in 18 months, he will not be promoted. His promotion sequence number will have a little asterisk next to it that tells him he needs to see the career counselor to reenlist to meet the service obligations. If he decides he is not going to stay in past his current contract, he will not be promoted. > [@AK84](#): > > As an aside, would 10 years and then leave as a Major be something possible in the US Army? It doesn’t even raise an eyebrow, in my opinion. I had a company commander make Major in like 7 or 8 years. > [@smithsb](#): > > What about the air Cavalry outfits? We have one here at Wheeler; they wear the hats on Fridays - very sharp. There is the 1st Cavalry Division Combat Aviation Brigade. They are composed of Apaches and attack helicopters. They are part of the 1st Cavalry Division which is made up of a combination of tanks (armor) and mechanized infantry companies. Hats and spurs are unique to cavalry units of all types. Personally, I like the Stetsons. I just like maroon berets better. There are cavalry battalions in the 173rd, 82nd, and 4-25th as well. Those are cavalry units made up of airborne infantry companies, so they are authorized maroon berets and Stetsons. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > So, an infantry officer could be competitive in their year group even if they tried 3-4 and always failed? When can they stop trying and not have their career suffer for it? “Trying” does not make them competitive for promotion. “Passing” makes them competitive. If they don’t pass by the time they are up for promotion to captain, they probably won’t get promoted the same year all their peers do. They certainly will not make Major in the same time frame. > [@](#): > > At what level, if any, do infantry NCOs get pressure to attend airborne/Ranger school for promotion? Pressure might not be the right word. It’s a little different for NCOs, but I would say probably around the Sergeant First Class level. Ironically, most NCOs (the vast majority) attend the school before they reach that level, so they have to plan ahead! That is to say, _most NCOs who go at all, go before they are SFC_. It isn’t the deal breaker that it is for officers though. If someone makes 1SG, and they don’t have their Ranger Tab, they are not likely to go that late in their career. They just have to accept the fact that they are not as competitive for promotion as their peers, all else being equal. But like I said, it isn’t a deal breaker. There are lots of other things being looked at. There are deal breakers, though. Not having an Expert Infantry Badge for instance. I can’t imagine someone being promoted to first sergeant without one. > [@](#): > > Airborne school: Because you have to suck as an infantry officer to flunk out of that (notwithstanding injuries)? Something else? It’s not a hard school. That isn’t the point. Infantry officers are expected to be able to lead infantrymen in any infantry unit. They cannot lead airborne infantrymen without having that qualification. So, without it, they do not possess the versatility that the Army demands. > [@](#): > > Range school: Because of the small wars focus of the US Army & Marines and the desire to make infantry more like special forces? Something else? Ranger school has nothing to do with Special Forces though. More than anything, it is a leadership school. Tactically, they teach the most basic of doctrine. They focus on the details. Soldiers learn to push themselves physically and mentally and to operate under stress with little sleep and little food. They learn to make decisions and maintain accountability and motivate each other at times where they can barely stand up without passing out from exhaustion. They learn to work as a team when they are starving and tired most vulnerable to irritability, tempers, and frustration. It doesn’t teach them advanced tactics or anything like that. That isn’t the point of it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217/24 "2015-09-16T02:51:34Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I presume those specialties are not subject to the up-or-out system? No they still are. You don’t see 20 year lieutenant doctors either. They have certain requirements they need to meet as they advance such advance officer schools and promotion boards. So they can’t be shitty at their job and get bad yearly reviews and expect to stay in. They don’t have to do what most other officers have to do like get command time (although some do get put in command positions) and hit various staff positions. They basically just have to do their job their entire career. A combat arms officer actually spends surprisingly little of his career leading combat troops. A lawyer can spend his whole career lawyering. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217/25 "2015-09-16T04:05:18Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > I presume those specialties are not subject to the up-or-out system? Loach covered the major point. Up or out isn’t entirely hard and fast. It does have an exception if the Army chooses to grant it. It’s called selective continuation. Once you are passed over the second time the Army can choose to allow you to continue serving. That kicks in for the field grades (MAJ through COL) with rules on when you can’t be continued anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joining-the-us-army-as-an-officer-out-of-college-iraq-war-era/731217.md?page=1)