# Joint Operations and Don't Ask Don't Tell **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 9, 2008, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574 "2008-04-09T06:46:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/1 "2008-04-09T06:46:58Z")
I believe several nations now allow gays & lesbians in their military (Canada, UK, Israel?). Does DADT become an issue at all in joint operations/missions between the US and other countries? Is it just not an issue because even though the missions are joint, the forces are still effectively separated? If the forces do comingle, how is the presence of gays and lesbians handles by the US forces? Also, are there parts of the military (non soldiers) for which DADT does not apply? \*Inspired by Stargate, in which later in the series the program made a deal in which while it kept custody of the gate, it had to let teams from other countries use the gate to go on missions. I believe at times there were mixed-nation teams as well. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/2 "2008-04-09T06:57:55Z")
Dunno. I opened this wondering what it had to do with reconstructive knee surgery. I’d wager though, as a WAG, it’s not an issue. Gays and lesbians are allowed in **the** military, even if it’s not i _your_ military. They answer to their own nations. I doubt any country would endanger a strategic relationship based on this - alliances seem hard enough to come by as it is, these days. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/3 "2008-04-09T07:48:44Z")
Heck, in Spain they can be married to someone of the same gender, or transexual and have had the sex change become effective while in the Army (there was a case a couple years back). If any soldiers from a force that’s working with ours have a problem with that it is, exactly, _their_ problem. After all, for many years Spain’s military didn’t allow women to join but worked side by side with forces that did. AFAIK, none of our soldiers got a mortal case of cooties because of it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/4 "2008-04-09T17:25:05Z")
How would they even know they’re gay? ---
**Author:** ![Amp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/5 "2008-04-09T17:29:26Z")
I think the pink BDU’s would be a dead give away. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/6 "2008-04-09T17:47:10Z")
The “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law (10 USC 654) only applies to members of the US Armed Forces. It doesn’t apply to our allies, even those allies in joint operations with US troops, it doesn’t apply to civilian DoD employees, and it doesn’t apply to contractors. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/7 "2008-04-09T18:02:55Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] How would they even know they’re gay? [/QUOTE] Someone asked or told. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/8 "2008-04-09T18:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=jackdavinci] If the forces do comingle, how is the presence of gays and lesbians handles by the US forces? [/QUOTE] Well, there ARE gays and lesbians in the US forces already. The first soldier injured in Iraq was a gay man. A recent decorated veteran killed in Iraq was gay, though the Washington Post carefully left that out of their article. The troops in the field ‘handle’ working with gay and lesbian fellow soldiers just fine. It’s the old, senior officers back in their offices far from the front lines who can’t handle the idea. But it was the same types who told President Truman that integration of black and white troops would destroy our military. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/9 "2008-04-09T18:35:40Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] How would they even know they’re gay? [/QUOTE] Some countries [allow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service) LGB people to serve openly. Presumably they would, in conversation about family, perhaps mention a same-sex partner or spouse or in some other way self-identify. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/10 "2008-04-09T19:39:40Z")
It just seems kind of stupid… if it worked as well as it did for the Thebans in Ancient Greece, why would having gay troops be any different in this day and age? > **[Sacred Band of Thebes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes)** > > The Sacred Band of Thebes (Ancient Greek: Ἱερός Λόχος, Hierós Lókhos) was a troop of select soldiers, consisting of 150 pairs of male lovers which formed the elite force of the Theban army in the 4th century BC, ending Spartan domination. Its predominance began with its crucial role in the Battle of Leuctra in 371 BC. It was annihilated by Philip II of Macedon in the Battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC. > The earliest surviving record of the Sacred Band by name was in 324 BC, in the oration Against Demo... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/11 "2008-04-09T20:28:50Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] The troops in the field ‘handle’ working with gay and lesbian fellow soldiers just fine. It’s the old, senior officers back in their offices far from the front lines who can’t handle the idea. But it was the same types who told President Truman that integration of black and white troops would destroy our military. [/QUOTE] Wow, those officers ARE old. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/12 "2008-04-09T23:04:54Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] The troops in the field ‘handle’ working with gay and lesbian fellow soldiers just fine. It’s the old, senior officers back in their offices far from the front lines who can’t handle the idea. But it was the same types who told President Truman that integration of black and white troops would destroy our military. [/QUOTE] I can’t speak for other services but I am currently an active duty member of the Army and this just isn’t true. No one in any unit I have ever been assigned to or worked with would ever admit to being gay for fear of being hazed and beat up, regardless of legal consequences. However I have been told several times in the past few months that “don’t ask, don’t tell” is no longer in effect, and that technically one can now join the military as an openly gay person. I am guessing based on the fact that no one has so far mentioned such a change that this is in fact not that case. If anyone can confirm that for me I would appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/13 "2008-04-09T23:55:38Z")
[QUOTE=AmunRa] I can’t speak for other services but I am currently an active duty member of the Army and this just isn’t true. No one in any unit I have ever been assigned to or worked with would ever admit to being gay for fear of being hazed and beat up, regardless of legal consequences. However I have been told several times in the past few months that “don’t ask, don’t tell” is no longer in effect, and that technically one can now join the military as an openly gay person. I am guessing based on the fact that no one has so far mentioned such a change that this is in fact not that case. If anyone can confirm that for me I would appreciate it. [/QUOTE] It isn’t the case. 10 U.S.C. § 654 is still in effect. It is possible that it is being ignored, but that isn’t the same thing as the law being repealed. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/14 "2008-04-10T02:13:37Z")
OP: As mentioned DADT is policy for the members of the US military. The Spanish/Canadian/Brit/Dutch officer or noncom attached to your unit can be gayer than Harvey Feirstein and theoretically it matters not to the US military – HOWEVER… [QUOTE=AmunRa] I can’t speak for other services but I am currently an active duty member of the Army and this just isn’t true. No one in any unit I have ever been assigned to or worked with would ever admit to being gay for fear of being hazed and beat up, regardless of legal consequences. [/QUOTE] IOW the alleged justification for the gay ban, namely that it’s harmful to good discipline and morale, is entirely a function of the attitudes of those servicemen who are such poor excuses for a soldier and a person that they’d haze and beat someone for being gay even though it’s explicitly forbidden anyway to assault a comrade. BUT, knowing that this is a fact that’s not quickly solved would probably result in it being “understood” that attachés are to be discreet and keep private matters private when around the Americans… ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-operations-and-dont-ask-dont-tell/444574/15 "2008-04-10T04:17:09Z")
[QUOTE=AmunRa] However I have been told several times in the past few months that “don’t ask, don’t tell” is no longer in effect, and that technically one can now join the military as an openly gay person. I am guessing based on the fact that no one has so far mentioned such a change that this is in fact not that case. If anyone can confirm that for me I would appreciate it. [/QUOTE] That is not true – the ban is still in effect, legally. But I’ve heard from several soldiers returning from Iraq that, in practice, it is widely ignored. Unit commanders feel understaffed, and are not willing to lose a good-performing soldier because of DADT, so they simply ignore it. I’ve even heard recently that since recruiting is way down, some recruiters are so desperate to fill their monthly quota that they knowingly accept a fairly open gay or lesbian enlisteee, even advising them on how to make it through basic training without a DADT problem. Not surprising, I suppose, given that the services are also reducing the requirements in other areas, such as prior criminal records or high school graduation requirements. About being hazed or beaten, I note that you are at a stateside military base. Such things seem to be more common there – soldiers who are out on the front lines have much more serious things to worry about.