# Joint Strike fighters still in limbo - Aussies threaten to withdraw - China hones stealth aircraft **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487 "2011-07-27T14:56:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/41 "2011-07-29T01:15:48Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Considering that Australia’s biggest “threat” is Indonesia and China, both of which are quite a bit further than 680 miles away… China is Australias number 1 two way trade partner. That’s like saying that Canada is the US biggest threat. However Australia does have aerial refuelling ya know? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/42 "2011-07-29T02:06:15Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > China is Australias number 1 two way trade partner. That’s like saying that Canada is the US biggest threat. Canada isn’t known for flexing its strategic muscles regionally, ya know? > [@](#): > > However Australia does have aerial refuelling ya know? Aerial refuelling. :rolleyes: The first rule of it is “don’t do it unless you absolutely have to”. The second rule is “don’t do it anywhere near enemy fighters”. With the legs on the F-35 and F-18, it’s pretty much impossible not to break the second rule IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/43 "2011-07-29T02:14:29Z")
China cannot be allowed to subvert America’s air and naval supremacy much as the Kaissereich tried to subvert Britain’s naval supremacy in the 1900s. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/44 "2011-07-29T02:37:22Z")
If China wants to close a thirty-year development gap, let them try. The J-10 fighter will struggle to match the capability of Western legacy aircraft like the F-15 and Tornado, let alone the F-22 and Typhoon. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/45 "2011-07-29T03:06:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > China cannot be allowed to subvert America’s air and naval supremacy much as the Kaissereich tried to subvert Britain’s naval supremacy in the 1900s. “Cannot be allowed”? “Subvert”? What are we gonna do if they manage to get their escort carrier floating? How much more money do you think we should spend on our military if they do? How much higher should our taxes be to pay for it? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/46 "2011-07-29T03:11:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If China wants to close a thirty-year development gap, let them try. The J-10 fighter will struggle to match the capability of Western legacy aircraft like the F-15 and Tornado, let alone the F-22 and Typhoon. The J-20 looks credible, so I’d say the development gap is closer to 15 years, but yeah. China’s not a strategic threat to the US at any predictable point this century. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/47 "2011-07-29T03:21:46Z")
Pfft. There is zero chance that China will have a stealth fighter aircraft in service in 15 years. The J-XX program was launched sometime around 1995; it took us that long to almost get the F-35 into service, despite the experience gained from the Raptor program (which began in 1982). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/48 "2011-07-29T03:29:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Second of all, I’m not American, and I didn’t know we were limited to the American point of view. When Israel kicks in more than a pittance of a multi-billion-dollar project, you get more to say about its development. The USA is paying a lot more and, as these things go on the playground, we get first [dibs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibs) Don’t like it? Talk to China or Russia about alternatives. I mean, fucking HOLLAND is paying more for development costs and who are they afraid of, Belgium? Or, from recent forum posts, Denmark? 😃 Okay, Germany, but still. 😉 > **[Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II_procurement)** > > Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II procurement is the planned selection and purchase of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, (JSF) by various countries. > The F-35 Lightning II was conceived from the start of the project as having participation from many countries, most of which would both contribute to the manufacture of the aircraft and procure it for their own armed forces. While the United States is the primary customer and financial backer, the Unit... ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/49 "2011-07-29T03:33:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Pfft. There is zero chance that China will have a stealth fighter aircraft in service in 15 years. The J-XX program was launched sometime around 1995; it took us that long to almost get the F-35 into service, despite the experience gained from the Raptor program (which began in 1982). Hmm, on the other hand, the F-22 first flight was in 1997, and it was deployed in 2005–eight years. J-20’s first flight was this January. I think you might be being a bit optimistic about development delays. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/50 "2011-07-29T03:33:50Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Aerial refuelling. :rolleyes: The first rule of it is “don’t do it unless you absolutely have to”. The second rule is “don’t do it anywhere near enemy fighters”. Third, you need it when there are no military airfields across the middle 9/10s of your continent. (Not intended as factual information.) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/51 "2011-07-29T03:34:32Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Third, you need it when there are no military airfields across the middle 9/10s of your continent. (Not intended as factual information.) There’s also nothing useful to bomb in those middle 9/10ths =P ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/52 "2011-07-29T03:38:30Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Canada isn’t known for flexing its strategic muscles regionally, ya know? Actually they are, they are contesting sovereignty of the arctic sea lanes and sea floor resources with Russia and the Nordic states. Has China started any wars lately? The have legitimate border disputes with Vietnam, the Philippines and Japan, so they need an aircraft carrier. Makes sense to me. Does anyone actually think they would try and invade Taiwan? Why would they?, China is much smarter than that, wait 15-25 years and Taiwan will peacefully reunify. Already millions of Taiwanese work in mainland China, and there is massive Chinese investment in Taiwan. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/53 "2011-07-29T03:40:44Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > There’s also nothing useful to bomb in those middle 9/10ths =P Yeah, but you still need to get from Brisbane to Perth without taking a steamship via Darwin and Surabaya. Pirate Jenny may take the ship with no way for you to take off or deploy your missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/54 "2011-07-29T04:24:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > When Israel kicks in more than a pittance of a multi-billion-dollar project, you get more to say about its development. The USA is paying a lot more and, as these things go on the playground, we get first [dibs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dibs) Don’t like it? Talk to China or Russia about alternatives. What on earth are you talking about? **Alessan** ’s post was simply refuting the idea that manned fighters are obsolete. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Hmm, on the other hand, the F-22 first flight was in 1997, and it was deployed in 2005–eight years. > > J-20’s first flight was this January. I think you might be being a bit optimistic about development delays. Sure, but the J-20 is as much a propaganda tool as a warplane. The F-22, if anything, is the opposite; the less people knew about its capabilities, the happier the USAF was. In other words, the Raptor was rolled out when it was just about done. I doubt the current J-20 prototype bears anything other than a physical resemblance to what the actual aircraft will be. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/55 "2011-07-29T04:52:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What on earth are you talking about? **Alessan** ’s post was simply refuting the idea that manned fighters are obsolete. If they are so useful to Israel and it wants in on them, it should pay more for its development. For my tax money it’s overkill and I feel we are subsidizing some of the other partners at my expense. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/56 "2011-07-29T05:11:22Z")
The OP has 14 threads. 12 of them directly relate to how afraid he is of China or Muslims. They all also include really lame anti-American jokes. He’s started this carrier debate at least 3 times, and he’s yet to explain why Americans should be afraid that China has less than 1/10 of the naval power that the U.S. possesses. I understand that this might be scary for Taiwan, but the OP makes it clear that he is addressing Americans. At the same time, it bothers him that America has an interventionist overseas policy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/57 "2011-07-29T05:32:34Z")
(military aircraft geek) But he’s talking about fighter-bombers! What can be cooler? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/58 "2011-07-29T07:06:03Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > The OP has 14 threads. 12 of them directly relate to how afraid he is of China or Muslims. . Logically I just don’t understand the irrational fear of China. In the last 40 years they haven’t started any wars or particularly manifested any imperial ambitions that I’m aware of. Tibet and Taiwan are seen as an integral part of China, and China wants Taiwan back. Whether you agree with their claims or not is not the point, the point is as far as I am aware China has never shown any signs of territorial ambitions outside what they consider as “Greater China” (that is Central China, Tibet and Taiwan) since the formation of the PRC. They do want to take their place in the world as a regional superpower with a bluewater navy. Why shouldn’t they? When the US and the USSR were caught up in wasting 100’s of millions on a pointless nuclear arms race, China did the smart thing, just built enough nuclear weapons so they couldn’t be bullied, and then stopped. Why did the US or USSR ever need 10’s of thousands of warheads when 100 would have devastated every major city and military target of their cold war foes? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/59 "2011-07-29T13:55:08Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Why did the US or USSR ever need 10’s of thousands of warheads when 100 would have devastated every major city and military target of their cold war foes? Well, the USSR refused then, and still refuses as far as I know, to admit that our dicks are bigger than theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487/60 "2011-07-29T14:10:45Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > If they are so useful to Israel and it wants in on them, it should pay more for its development. For my tax money it’s overkill and I feel we are subsidizing some of the other partners at my expense. Perhaps you should read his posts again. He didn’t say anything about Israel or the F-35 being useful to Israel. Israel isn’t even contributing to the F-35 development costs. I don’t think you understand how this works; “other partners” usually don’t pay anything. They just buy some planes- which generates huge profits for US industry and makes subsequent US purchases cheaper. How is it overkill? The F-35 will be vastly cheaper to operate than the F-22 (though thanks to inter-service squabbles and Lockheed’s incompetence, it won’t be cheaper to buy). That’s the whole point of the program - to supplement the F-22’s spearhead capability with a larger fleet of second-tier fighters, just like the F-15/F-16 fleets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joint-strike-fighters-still-in-limbo-aussies-threaten-to-withdraw-china-hones-stealth-aircraft/590487.md?page=4)