# Joker - Seen it (No spoilers in the OP) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 3, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228 "2019-10-03T23:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/21 "2019-10-07T05:38:16Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > On NPR I heard a story about the cello composer. I would see it just for the music. Yes the cello was haunting, in fact the whole score was top of the game. Still a bit suspect about using Gary Glitter music but it sure suited and enhanced the scene. This is one the best movies I have seen in a long time. The scene dancing on the cop car brought tears to my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/22 "2019-10-07T10:15:35Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I don’t think so, unless Thomas was able to hide his birth and fake his adoption… That seems a bit unlikely. Maybe they did have a thing, but that’s impossible to know with no evidence besides her word and that photograph which could have been her handwriting. But, then again… how was somebody as unhinged as Penny Fleck able to adopt as a single mother? Even in, roughly, the mid-1950’s. How didn’t she spend a decade or more locked in Arkham? How was she given custody of the abused kid again? None of that makes sense, unless some really powerful people were involved in a cover-up. ---
**Author:** ![amaguri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@amaguri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amaguri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/23 "2019-10-07T17:29:47Z")
I didn’t catch the sirens as he left Sophie’s so make of that what you will, but I didn’t get the sense that he killed her. He let the little person clown go for always being nice to him so what reason would he have to kill Sophie? Even if most of their interactions were fantasies? ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/24 "2019-10-07T21:42:13Z")
Can somebody spoil the gore in the movie for me? I kind of want to see it and a certain amount of gore doesn’t bother me (I’ve gotten more desensitized to it, as long as it’s not of the “spring-loaded cat” jump-scare variety) but I’d like to know what I’m getting into before I go. If I didn’t mind the “Watchmen” movie and routinely watch gory medical show like “House” and “The Good Doctor,” will I be okay with this? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/25 "2019-10-07T21:58:55Z")
As I remember, there was _very_ little gore in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/26 "2019-10-07T22:36:39Z")
There’s one particularly brutal murder scene involving a whole lot of stabbing. There are a number of bloody shootings. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/27 "2019-10-07T22:45:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > There’s one particularly brutal murder scene involving a whole lot of stabbing. There are a number of bloody shootings. That’s about it. Okay, thanks. That, I can handle. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/28 "2019-10-08T03:17:24Z")
> [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser](#): > > But, then again… how was somebody as unhinged as Penny Fleck able to adopt as a single mother? Even in, roughly, the mid-1950’s. How didn’t she spend a decade or more locked in Arkham? How was she given custody of the abused kid again? > > None of that makes sense, unless some really powerful people were involved in a cover-up. Maybe, who knows? I think they really wanted that whole thing to be totally ambiguous. I will say that I don’t see social services for Gotham, as depicted in that movie, doing right by a child. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/29 "2019-10-08T05:19:08Z")
I keep reading that the movie is a political statement. Then I read the director said it isn’t. So is it or isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/30 "2019-10-08T15:17:39Z")
I really enjoyed it. Phoenix was great. In particular i really enjoyed the bizarre physicality he brought to the role in many different ways: the way he ran, the dancing, that one scene in the alley where -after being fired- he was kicking a trash can in frustration (that last one seemed just perfect for the joker to me), and of course his gaunt appearance. I don’t know if this is a cold take (i avoided reviews/articles before seeing it last night) but i can’t help but wonder if the entire move was in his head. As in… was he just a troubled person in an asylum that after hearing about the Waynes being murdered, he just created an entire fantasy in his head about how he was somehow a part of it (which was the joke that the therapist wouldn’t get). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/31 "2019-10-08T17:51:06Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > 1. Is Arthur in fact Thomas Wayne’s kid? I also lean towards ‘yes’ on this one. His mother supposedly suffers from delusions and narcissistic personality disorder, but as viewers we’re not shown anything to support that in the movie’s present day. Based on what we see of Thomas Wayne, it doesn’t seem far-fetched to believe that the diagnosis was in fact cooked up to cover up his parentage. At first, both Phoenix and Phillips had indicated that this movie was a one off and there was never any intention of a sequel. However, it seems that after the initial success, they are now both open to a sequel. I would love to think that some behind the scenes bribes at Arkham got the Arthur/Penny thing cleared up for the Waynes and that it was Hugo Strange who made it happen. That could make for an interesting sequel and would probably mean that Stranges knows the identities of both Joker and Batman. > [@nelliebly](#): > > I keep reading that the movie is a political statement. Then I read the director said it isn’t. So is it or isn’t it? Well, I’m not 100% sure, but I think that there was a reason the originally wanted Alec Baldwin to play Thomas Wayne… ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/32 "2019-10-08T17:55:48Z")
> [@Clawdio](#): > > I don’t know if this is a cold take (i avoided reviews/articles before seeing it last night) but i can’t help but wonder if the entire move was in his head. As in… was he just a troubled person in an asylum that after hearing about the Waynes being murdered, he just created an entire fantasy in his head about how he was somehow a part of it (which was the joke that the therapist wouldn’t get). I hadn’t thought that when seeing the film, but I think that is a legitimate reading and I don’t think there is anything that specifically goes against that theory. Was the therapist he talked to earlier the same actress as the one in Arkham at the very end? If they were the same person, then I think your theory may actually be accurate! I just thought that the car crash at the end and scenes of Joker acolytes cheering while he danced on the car was in his head and he was actually just arrested and brought to Arkham. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/33 "2019-10-08T18:04:37Z")
If the movie is entirely in Arthur’s head, then what’s the point? Who cares? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/34 "2019-10-08T18:06:52Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > then what’s the point? Who cares? The movie would still be a study of a flawed person. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/35 "2019-10-08T18:50:40Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > At first, both Phoenix and Phillips had indicated that this movie was a one off and there was never any intention of a sequel. However, it seems that after the initial success, they are now both open to a sequel. I’m down with that, but I really want a young Batman in there. Pheonix would have to be done up considerably older of course, which may be a problem, because he looked old as shit in this movie (I was shocked to find out he is only 44, I thought he was a bit older than me). I also don’t know how this version would be a real threat to Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/36 "2019-10-08T20:03:02Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > The movie would still be a study of a flawed person. Yes, that’s all well and good. But then there’s no emotional involvement. It would mean no one died in the entire movie. It would be an interesting, but hollow, movie. A nice episode of a tv show, but not a Major Motion Picture. I don’t mind an unreliable narrator, but the core of the movie should be grounded in the cinematic reality within. The audience should be able to tell to some extent what is true by the end of the film. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/37 "2019-10-08T20:07:13Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > …I could never see the character he played being any sort of threat to Batman, or a criminal Mastermind in any sense. He was a mentally ill common criminal. I like the theory that Joaquin’s Joker might not be THE Joker. There sure were a lot of folks in Joker masks rioting at the end of the movie. It wouldn’t even have to be one of them, but a younger criminally insane mastermind, more contemporary with Bruce, that takes inspiration from Joaquin’s Joker 25 years down the road. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/38 "2019-10-08T20:38:55Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > I like the theory that Joaquin’s Joker might not be THE Joker. There sure were a lot of folks in Joker masks rioting at the end of the movie. It wouldn’t even have to be one of them, but a younger criminally insane mastermind, more contemporary with Bruce, that takes inspiration from Joaquin’s Joker 25 years down the road. Also, this Joker doesn’t start off with an ability to ever ‘go big’. Ledger’s take on the guy had a knack for explosives and other military hardware; Nicholson’s was meant to have a real aptitude for mass poisonings, plus tricks with acids. This one, though, doesn’t seem to have _anything_ extra up his sleeve; he’s just, y’know, mentally ill. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/39 "2019-10-08T20:43:58Z")
You see, it’s the name that matters - I, as you know, am not the real Joker - I met him when he kidnapped my family and he took me in as one of his goons - it was my laughter as he cut my sisters throat that drew him to me - each day we’d cause some chaos and he would tell me “good job, wesley - I’ll most likely kill you in the morning” and then tie me to the floor so I could sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Clawdio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d07c76/32.png) [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228/40 "2019-10-08T20:53:04Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Yes, that’s all well and good. But then there’s no emotional involvement. It would mean no one died in the entire movie. Well, except for The therapist at the end of the movie. After killing her and leaving bloody foot prints in the hall, he escapes and goes on to actually become the Joker from his fantasy, but the entire backstory is a fantasy, and he had nothing to do with the Waynes murder [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joker-seen-it-no-spoilers-in-the-op/841228.md?page=3)