# Jon Benet Ramsey murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2006, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071 "2006-05-02T06:33:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/41 "2006-05-03T00:49:00Z")
Now that we know who Deep Throat is, I hope this case and the Nicole Simpson/Ron Goldman murders are solved beyond a doubt within my lifetime. All I know is that ransom note was damn long for someone to write while at the scene of the crime (which they did), and that it asked for $118,000 – $117.50 less than Jon Ramsey’s bonus that year. If this were _Law & Order_, it would have been the brother, with the parents covering up for him. If it was on of them and the other parent knew, they probably would have ratted by now. Wasn’t there a family friend who wrote a novel surprisingly similar to the case? (for the record, I completely agree with **AHunter3** ’s comments, and find it odd that people embrace Victorian notions of childhood innocence as if they’ve always existed) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/42 "2006-05-03T01:30:10Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’m also pretty sure it can’t be diagnosed in a six-year old. Not that a diagnosis, in itself, would make somebody evil. A lot of socipothaths can be perfectly functional. law abiding people. Look at Congress. > > I still say it’s ridiculous to call a six year old “evil.” They simply don’t have the cognitive or emotional faculties to appreciate the consequences of their actions. Get off the “evil” track willya? I was simply illustrating that the notion that all six-year-olds are “innocent” is also ridiculous–some of them are really messed up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/43 "2006-05-03T01:48:43Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Get off the “evil” track willya? I was simply illustrating that the notion that all six-year-olds are “innocent” is also ridiculous–some of them are really messed up. Well, bear in mind that I have a six year old daughter so maybe I’m being overly defensive. 😉 Enough with this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/44 "2006-05-03T14:37:29Z")
Despite the fact that English is my native language, I wrote > [@](#): > > I would not be at all surprised if the person who killed her did not ascribe to the belief that children were innocents. Or supposed to be. That should’ve been " I would not be at all surprised if the person who killed her _ **ascribed** _ to the belief that children were innocents. Or supposed to be." Hope that was obvious from context. PS: I did not at any point mean to imply that folks in this thread who find the use of “innocent” appropriate were themselves creepy, lascivious, or a danger to children. (A person can say “B tends to fall into category A” without inviting the inference that “A tends to fall into category B”). I do find it creepy but I will leave you alone about it, having said my piece here. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/45 "2006-05-03T15:10:45Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Northwest. > > (Ah, I feel better. The interns did everything right today - I’ve been craving something to nit-pick.) :smack: Man, I HATE when that happens! I live northeast of Denver, thus the confusion (that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.) I have to wonder how this thread would have gone if Buck Rogers hadn’t used the word “innocent.” Not that he shouldn’t have, mind you. It’s just amazing to me how many people will spend so much time debating the use of a single word that has nothing to do with the original question. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/46 "2006-05-03T16:04:59Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > When you have as much money as the Ramsey’s have, your first inclination at the sign of _any_ trouble, real or not, is to get a lawyer. Doesn’t mean the love their children any less. I thought that the SOP of rich parents whose 6 year-old has been killed is to write a bogus ransom note. :smack: You mean to tell me they don’t do that, they call their lawyer!!! Wow, I learned something today. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/47 "2006-05-03T17:13:34Z")
Half the homicides of young children are perpetrated by the parents. Among infants, the number is closer to seventy percent. Of course the police investigate the parents, and even distraught, innocent people accused by innuendo, or direct interrogation will try to get support from somewhere. If you have the means, somewhere will be a good criminal lawyer. No one has been formally charged, no one found guilty. In the legal sense, the Ramseys are innocent. Even if they did not kill their daughter, I am relatively certain any other aspect of innocence has been ripped away from their lives by the fanatical scrutiny of the press feeding frenzy the case initiated. Tris ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/48 "2006-05-03T17:27:53Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > They obviously not looked at ALL potential suspects. They may not know of the alleged ‘dirty little secret’ of the pageants. What is this supposed “dirty little secret”? ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/49 "2006-05-03T21:35:08Z")
The odds, based on decades of studies are about 2-1 that one of the Ramseys killed JonBenet. The police were right to focus there first Strangers jumping out and abducting & murdering kids in the U.S. happens, but the odds of it happening are [vanishingly](http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=oped&ID=95)[slim (pdf)](http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf) . Almost certainly, speaking out my bottom and having neither met the Ramseys nor invetsegated first hand the case I am with a wave of the hand dismissing any notion that a stranger did this. In 1996 [,the DOJ tells us,](http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/RunHomStatebyState.cfm) 13 kids under 14 were murdered in Colorado. Using [these Stats](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm) , for kids under 5 [_and yes we all know JBR was 6 and that these are 40 year national Trend Stats and not Colorodo in 1996 Stats but play along_] we can say That of these 13 kids likely: 4.34 were killed by their fathers 4.2 were killed by thier mothers 3.22 were killed by male acquaintances 0.84 were killed by other relatives 0.44 were killed by strangers This is simply a graphical representation of the statistics. Although 13 number, to me, is telling that there wasn’t some kind of Child Killing monster on the loose in COlorado 1996 as sometimes the Tabloids would lead us to believe There is a 67% chance that Mr, Mrs or Jr (or some theoretical not in the picture “other” relative) killed JBR. That fact, plus for us not to believe it was them we need to have someone, almost certainly a male acquaintance familiar with the family, the house and Mr. R’s bonus packages, broke in, took JBR to the basement, killed her and then left a ransom note because … I just can’t create a realistic scenario that beats decades of stats that give us a 2/3 liklihood that one of the Ramsey Trio did it ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/50 "2006-05-04T07:26:31Z")
According to an (link below) article in Crime Library: > [@](#): > > Finally, after years of grieving over the loss of their child and then suffering demonization of themselves in the media, the Ramseys are finding the vindication that they sought from day one. An Atlanta judge and the Boulder district attorney agreed that the Ramseys may have be been right all along and that the weight of evidence supports the belief that an intruder was responsible for JonBenet’s death. Furthermore, the district judge criticized police and the FBI for what she said was a media campaign aimed at making the family look guilty. > [@](#): > > District Attorney Mary Keenan took over the Ramsey case in December, 2002. She raised eyebrows in the Boulder law enforcement community by publicly disagreeing with the entrenched police viewpoint. “I agree with the court’s conclusion that ‘the weight of the evidence is more consistent with the theory that an intruder murdered JonBenet than it is with the theory that Mrs. Ramsey did it,’” she stated in April, 2003. > > There is significant unexplained evidence to support the intruder theory, ABC reports: “a mysterious boot print outside the house; DNA of an unknown male on JonBenet and her underpants; marks on her body that could have been made by a stun gun; and signs that someone may have entered the house through a basement window.” I feel sorry for the Ramseys, however misguided parents they were, they lost their child and are doubly scarred forever. [http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious\_murders/famous/ramsey/index\_1.html](http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/ramsey/index_1.html) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/51 "2006-05-04T09:36:25Z")
It ain’t that cut and dried. My brother lives in Boulder and took a few hour drive once with the DA, and they talked about the case. DA said, if he had evidence he would charge someone but he didn’t. For all the stats on the parents, one thing to keep in mind is that JBR went out really hard and really slow. IIRC she was slowly suffocated. Anyhoo, if you’re interested you can search the details. However, there has never been a record of a parent whacking their own kid is such a nasty way. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/52 "2006-05-04T09:59:55Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > IIRC she was slowly suffocated. Anyhoo, if you’re interested you can search the details. However, there has never been a record of a parent whacking their own kid is such a nasty way. Eh?? Got a cite for that? Plenty of parents kill their kids in all sorts of gruesome ways. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/53 "2006-05-04T10:16:59Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > The odds, based on decades of studies are about 2-1 that one of the Ramseys killed JonBenet. The police were right to focus there first > > Strangers jumping out and abducting & murdering kids in the U.S. happens, but the odds of it happening are [vanishingly](http://www.stats.org/record.jsp?type=oped&ID=95)[slim (pdf)](http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf) . Almost certainly, speaking out my bottom and having neither met the Ramseys nor invetsegated first hand the case I am with a wave of the hand dismissing any notion that a stranger did this. > > In 1996 [,the DOJ tells us,](http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Homicide/State/RunHomStatebyState.cfm) 13 kids under 14 were murdered in Colorado. > > Using [these Stats](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm) , for kids under 5 [_and yes we all know JBR was 6 and that these are 40 year national Trend Stats and not Colorodo in 1996 Stats but play along_] we can say That of these 13 kids likely: > 4.34 were killed by their fathers > 4.2 were killed by thier mothers > 3.22 were killed by male acquaintances > 0.84 were killed by other relatives > 0.44 were killed by strangers > > This is simply a graphical representation of the statistics. Although 13 number, to me, is telling that there wasn’t some kind of Child Killing monster on the loose in COlorado 1996 as sometimes the Tabloids would lead us to believe > > There is a 67% chance that Mr, Mrs or Jr (or some theoretical not in the picture “other” relative) killed JBR. That fact, plus for us not to believe it was them we need to have someone, almost certainly a male acquaintance familiar with the family, the house and Mr. R’s bonus packages, broke in, took JBR to the basement, killed her and then left a ransom note because … I just can’t create a realistic scenario that beats decades of stats that give us a 2/3 liklihood that one of the Ramsey Trio did it I was mildly surprised that the stats aren’t more compelling. Whenever I hear news of a missing or murdered child, my gut reaction is that a parent did it and I can’t recall a contrary outcome. The police completely fumbled the investigation and allowed the crime scene to be fouled, and there will never be a conviction. Short of a conviction/confession by others, I will believe the Ramseys did it. If ever a person could take a secret to his grave, it’s Mr. Ramsey. I always thought Mrs. Ramsey would crack, but no such luck. The way she referred to her own daughter as “that child” really gave me the willies. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/54 "2006-05-04T10:26:39Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Eh?? Got a cite for that? > > Plenty of parents kill their kids in all sorts of gruesome ways. read mind hunter by john douglas. paren6s kill kids in gruesome ways in a fit of anger or stage it afterwards. parents don’t slowly kill their kids in a torturesome way. i’m on a pda and don’t have bandwidth to search out details on the death ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/55 "2006-05-04T12:16:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The way she referred to her own daughter as “that child” really gave me the willies. I think that probably has something to do with the pageant culture Mrs. Ramsey has been entrenched in for so long. (Does “weighing” motions with hands) Daughter…commodity…daughter…commodity. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/56 "2006-05-04T14:50:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I was mildly surprised that the stats aren’t more compelling. Whenever I hear news of a missing or murdered child, my gut reaction is that a parent did it and I can’t recall a contrary outcome. Really? The cases that have made it to the news are seldomly the case. Anyone remember that mormon family? Everybody thought the father was ‘sneaky’, he had ‘something to hide’. Didn’t the girl turn out to have been abducted from her bedroom by a stranger? Read the Crime Library article, then see if you think the same way. I think that the Ramseys, like that mormon family, are just victims of their lifestyle. The “they do things of which we disapprove of, therefore they must be guilty” mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/57 "2006-05-04T15:22:59Z")
> [@China Guy](#): > > read mind hunter by john douglas. paren6s kill kids in gruesome ways in a fit of anger or stage it afterwards. parents don’t slowly kill their kids in a torturesome way. > > i’m on a pda and don’t have bandwidth to search out details on the death That is simply incorrect to say as an absolute statement. People, including parents, are capable of just about any evil you can think of. [Susan Smith](http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/year_in_review/us/smith.html) was the South Carolina woman that took her two young sons on a drive, made sure they were secure in their car seats, and rolled the car into a lake where they drowned a while later. She reported her car as carjacked and she did it to free her self up for the man she was having an affair with. [Andrea Yates](http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/special/01/drownings/index.html) took her 5 children into the bathroom one by one and drowned each of them by holding their face in bathtub. The whole process took a while. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/58 "2006-05-04T15:48:20Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > [Andrea Yates](http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/special/01/drownings/index.html) took her 5 children into the bathroom one by one and drowned each of them by holding their face in bathtub. The whole process took a while. Didn’t she have to chase the last one down? _shudders_ Anyway, this was the exact case that came into my mind. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/59 "2006-05-04T18:48:37Z")
[Lashawn Barber claims](http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2004/08/02/jonbenets-father-runs-for-office/) that Patsy Ramsay was wearing the clothes, makeup and hair she had been wearing the night before when police showed up at her house. I can’t find other cites of that, and don’t recall hearing it before. To me, that’s pretty damning. Also, I once saw on a news magazine (20 20 maybe?) that on the ransom notes was the impression of a first draft of the note - where you could see where the pen pressed down. Does anyone else remember that? I can’t find that by googling either. That again makes the whole intruder angle seem even more ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071/60 "2006-05-04T19:26:26Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Lashawn Barber claims](http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2004/08/02/jonbenets-father-runs-for-office/) that Patsy Ramsay was wearing the clothes, makeup and hair she had been wearing the night before when police showed up at her house. Out of curiosity, why is that so damning? -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-benet-ramsey-murder/355071.md?page=4)