# Jon Stewart and Charlton Heston on Ground Zero Mosque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885 "2010-08-20T16:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/21 "2010-08-20T17:48:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not convinced it’s a fair comparison. The NRA, as an organization which agitates for the unrestricted ownership of firearms, is in some small part indirectly responsible for the Columbine shootings. The Cordoba Initiative does not appear to be in any way responsible for 9/11. Given the factors **Marley** raised, this shouldn’t be taken to mean I think the NRA was wrong; after all, moving a national conference or convention with a week’s notice is not exactly commonly done. I’m just saying I don’t think the situations are analogous. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/22 "2010-08-20T17:54:07Z")
> [@Page\_Fault](#): > > Not really. The NRA is also heavily involved in gun safety education and keeping them out of the hands of minors, responsible ownership, and other such things. You can be critical of them in that they are against gun control in the form of less restricted gun ownership for American Citizens, but to imply that they are reckless about their beliefs is a bit overboard. The NRA’s block of background check requirements for unlicensed gun sellers allowed ex-con Mark Manes to buy the Tec-9 which Harris and Klebold used… at a Colorado gun show. Now, Manes broke the law when he sold it to Harris, who was a minor, but Manes should never have been able to buy the gun himself in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/23 "2010-08-20T18:05:13Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? After Walter Cronkite died Jon Stewart become the [most trusted newscaster in the nation](http://www.timepolls.com/hppolls/archive/poll_results_417.html). Not bad considering he is not a newscaster. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/24 "2010-08-20T18:07:06Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > “Steward agreed and said he himself was wrong on the issue at the time.” > > So convenient, isn’t it? My point still stands. If Pastor Hagee decided to build a cathedral in the middle of Baghdad where a lot of Muslims died in the war, people will say that Pastor Hagee is an insensitive arrogant prick. So are the Muslims who insist on building that mosque. That’s ridiculous. There were already over a million Christians with churches and everything, before the war began. The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing. The point Jon makes is that although it’s understandable to have an emotional reaction if we abandon basic principles in doing so we’re wrong. or as Heston put it. “Each horrible act can’t become an axe for opportunist to cleave the very bill of rights that binds us” It’s really a shame if you can’t see the point being made so clearly and so well. It’s like this. If someone objected to Hagee building a cathedral/community center in Baghdad simply because he was a Christian and other Christians had done bad things in Baghdad , they’d be wrong, just as you are wrong now. Although I do agree Hagee is a prick, just not for that reason ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/25 "2010-08-20T18:10:11Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? > > After Walter Cronkite died Jon Stewart become the [most trusted newscaster in the nation](http://www.timepolls.com/hppolls/archive/poll_results_417.html). > > Not bad considering he is not a newscaster. I still think it’s because very often Jon is pointing out the bullshit and calling it what it is, while the actual News channels can’t seem to do thise. I mean, jesus, “Terrorist command center” what kind of irresponsible BS is that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/26 "2010-08-20T18:15:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I can’t watch the video either right now, but from what people are saying, Stewart is acknowledging that when people get emotional about a subject they tend to turn their brains off, and that this is true for the left as well as the right…is that a fair synopsis? So, in hindsight, those folks (well…some of them at least) who wanted the NRA to move off were wrong, and these folks who don’t want the mosque on ground zero are wrong, and will realize that down the road in hindsight as well…correct? > > If so, I agree completely. The folks who are protesting against the mosque on ground-zero are letting their emotions rule them on this issue, and are doing something that runs counter to American ideals. Whether they realize that down the road I can’t predict, but hope springs eternal… > > -XT That’s right. It’s also about the dangerous and stupid game of guilt by a sort of maybe losse association that Fox play. It’s also effective because of Heston’s eloquence regarding the issue. It’s wrong to hold the NRA as a group responsible for the acts of two crazed individuals just as it’s wrong to associate anything Muslim with 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/27 "2010-08-20T18:18:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing. The most effective part is that he showed a Fox host (Van Susternen? I have no idea) guest hosting on Bill O’Reilly’s show and saying “I really like what you’re doing, Ms. Khan, and we appreciate it.” She’s speaking to Daisy Khan, the wife of Imam Rauf. The clip is from December, which was around the time the New York Times reported on the Cordoba Initiative but before everybody lost their minds. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? Because he’s willing to stuff most other commentators won’t, like make an effort to understand someone else’s point of view and admit when he’s wrong. And this is a very good example even though I have some quibbles with using the NRA convention as an analogy to the Islamic center. EDIT: Oh, and he also let his “opponent” finish more than one sentence. They gave Heston plenty of time to make his point. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/28 "2010-08-20T18:22:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not convinced it’s a fair comparison. The NRA, as an organization which agitates for the unrestricted ownership of firearms, is in some small part indirectly responsible for the Columbine shootings. The Cordoba Initiative does not appear to be in any way responsible for 9/11. That’s debateable but not the point of Jon’s piece. It’s about the emotional reaction to a tragedy and looking for a villian, {Heston’s words}. It’s about how being caught up in those emotions can lead us to abandon principles we claim to support. A fair comparison IMO. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/29 "2010-08-20T18:25:44Z")
Jon Stewart just owned, and owned and owned this issue. Gov. Dr. Dean, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/30 "2010-08-20T18:26:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > “America must stop this predictable pattern of reaction…” > > - Charlton Heston May 1, 1999 yeah , over ten years ago. I wonder when that will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Aversin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Aversin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aversin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/31 "2010-08-20T18:28:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Page\_Fault](#): > > > > Not really. The NRA is also heavily involved in gun safety education and keeping them out of the hands of minors, responsible ownership, and other such things. You can be critical of them in that they are against gun control in the form of less restricted gun ownership for American Citizens, but to imply that they are reckless about their beliefs is a bit overboard. > > The NRA’s block of background check requirements for unlicensed gun sellers allowed ex-con Mark Manes to buy the Tec-9 which Harris and Klebold used… at a Colorado gun show. Now, Manes broke the law when he sold it to Harris, who was a minor, but Manes should never have been able to buy the gun himself in the first place. If he broke the law selling a gun to a minor, what makes you believe he would have done a background check even if it were the law? Chances are he would have either found another source for the gun(if the original owner insisted), or purchased a different gun from someone else. I’m not claiming the law would do no good, just that there is no proof it would have stopped Harris from getting a gun. Regarding the OP, I don’t think the situations are identical, but I do believe the main point Stewart/Heston made applies to this situation(Muslim community center controversy). Without getting into conspiracy theories I’ve often wondered the answer to question number 2 as well. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/32 "2010-08-20T18:28:45Z")
While I agree that NOONE has the right to tell anyone where to build a mosque/church/synagogue, what would impress me is seeing a collaborative effort to build a memorial to the people who died on 9/11. Raze the strip club and put it there. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/33 "2010-08-20T18:51:21Z")
There’s already a memorial there - I think they did finish that exposed wall with all the names of the victims on it. And they’re going to build a musem, too. Why do they need to go tear down a strip club two blocks away and build another one? How many of these freaking things do we need exactly? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/34 "2010-08-20T19:02:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s already a memorial there - I think they did finish that exposed wall with all the names of the victims on it. And they’re going to build a musem, too. Why do they need to go tear down a strip club two blocks away and build another one? How many of these freaking things do we need exactly? Strip clubs? The more the merrier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/35 "2010-08-20T19:03:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (1) Anyone disagree with Jon and Charlton’s point? I’m not going to watch a video, especially an edited one of someone who’s been dead for years. Summarize it if you want us to discuss it, and be sure to clarify if this is at all related to the clips from M. Moore’s film-- those clips were taken out of context. > [@](#): > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? Define “so many”. But this is nothing new. Comedians have been making fun of the political process, and making good points along the way, ever since Og ran for mayor of The Cave. But seems to me the real question is… are these two instances comparable in the first place? I say no. Like it or not, the terror attacks of 9/11/01 are unique in the American psyche. Maybe that will change over time, but give it at least a few generations for that to be the case. Compare it to Pearl Harbor if you must compare it to something, but school shootings are, sadly, something that happens with regularity in this country. Planes flying into the World Trade Centers… not very often. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/36 "2010-08-20T19:05:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > “Steward agreed and said he himself was wrong on the issue at the time.” > > > > So convenient, isn’t it? My point still stands. If Pastor Hagee decided to build a cathedral in the middle of Baghdad where a lot of Muslims died in the war, people will say that Pastor Hagee is an insensitive arrogant prick. So are the Muslims who insist on building that mosque. > > That’s ridiculous. There were already over a million Christians with churches and everything, before the war began. The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing. Plus the second most powerful person in the country before the war was Christian. And women were not only allowed to drive, but were professionals like doctors. Iraq before the war was far more secular than most. How soon people forget. The other point Stewart made, for those who didn’t see it, was that it is absurd to oppose building the **cultural center** (not mosque) on the grounds it could be a terrorist command center and then being in favor of building it near Central Park. He made the point that 9/11 was planned in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/37 "2010-08-20T19:11:06Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Now, if only I could use this logic to convince some of the people I know that the mosque is, if anything, a spit in the face of the Islamic extremists, not something to be hated and fought against. Quoted for truth. Among the many things I don’t quite get in this manufactured controversy is the whole ‘spit in the faces of the WTC dead’ bit that this proposed center is supposed to represent. Were the people who worked in the WTC known to dislike the idea of a mosque in lower Manhattan? Does anyone actuallly think that the 9/11 attacks were intended to promote the construction of more mosques in Manhattan, or anywhere else in the US, for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/38 "2010-08-20T19:15:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There’s already a memorial there - I think they did finish that exposed wall with all the names of the victims on it. And they’re going to build a musem, too. Why do they need to go tear down a strip club two blocks away and build another one? How many of these freaking things do we need exactly? You’re right **Marley**. Two seconds of Google-Fu showed me that. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/39 "2010-08-20T19:18:06Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Can’t be viewed outside the States. It works for me - I’m in Norway. Maybe there’s some kind of 24 hour timed exclusivity - could you try again? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? > > After Walter Cronkite died Jon Stewart become the [most trusted newscaster in the nation](http://www.timepolls.com/hppolls/archive/poll_results_417.html). > > Not bad considering he is not a newscaster. Not that I disagree with the point, but if you mouseover the polls for the states, it looks like the poll results are for a few dozen or hundreds of voters per state. Hardly a statistical relevant sample size. ETA: Also, Charlton Heston is probably the most charistmatic speaker I’ve heard in years. RIP. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/40 "2010-08-20T19:25:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > > (1) Anyone disagree with Jon and Charlton’s point? > > I’m not going to watch a video, especially an edited one of someone who’s been dead for years. Summarize it if you want us to discuss it, and be sure to clarify if this is at all related to the clips from M. Moore’s film-- those clips were taken out of context. Its been summarized in the thread already. The clip of Heston is not taken out of context in any way, nor is it specifically connected to M. Moore’s film. Watching it is interesting in some regards, but the basic point is clear. It is about guilt by distant association. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > (2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? > > Define “so many”. But this is nothing new. Comedians have been making fun of the political process, and making good points along the way, ever since Og ran for mayor of The Cave. Og was the worst mayor we ever had. He was clearly backed by the anti pointed stick crowd. > [@](#): > > But seems to me the real question is… are these two instances comparable in the first place? I say no. Like it or not, the terror attacks of 9/11/01 are unique in the American psyche. Maybe that will change over time, but give it at least a few generations for that to be the case. Compare it to Pearl Harbor if you must compare it to something, but school shootings are, sadly, something that happens with regularity in this country. Planes flying into the World Trade Centers… not very often. School shootings like Columbine are unusual, and it was also unique in the American psyche. But let’s compare it to Pearl Harbor. Are you saying that the internment of US citizens of Japanese descent was justified? All of these cases are about guilt based on loosely coupled association. The terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 were religious fundamentalists. Does that exclude Christian fundamentalists from building a church near Ground Zero? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885.md?page=3)