# Jon Stewart and Charlton Heston on Ground Zero Mosque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885 "2010-08-20T16:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/101 "2010-08-21T02:07:14Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Air date for us Canadian folks who have to get it off a different web site? Its on todays comedy central, 19th I believe ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/102 "2010-08-21T02:33:27Z")
Just because you’re complaining so much, Anduril: > [@Anduril](#): > > \*An Christian extremist group just bombed a very old mosque in Baghdad, killing 3,000 people. Years later, Pastor X decides to build a cathedral just two blocks away from this place. His many sermons have been about spreading Christianity in the Middle East. Muslims expressed their anger. \* > > Do you really expect me to believe that people here will not excoriate Pastor X for his insensitivity? Really?!? First off : I was not aware that the World Trade Centre was a christian church. Oh wait. It wasn’t. Also, there were Muslims (as well as Atheists, Jews and other non-Christians) killed in the 9/11 attacks. Secondly: I’m _sure_ there would be people “here” disapproving of that hypothetical pastor. People disapprove of all kinds of shit. By the way, you should be aware that there are (and have been since the 16th century at least) Christian churches in Baghdad. Now answer me this: **how is all of that in any way relevant?** You keep putting up straw men and non-sequiturs, and up till now, you’ve just ignored that question. See also my post #70. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/103 "2010-08-21T03:17:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > The anger is directed because of the insensitivity of that group. You’re all for appeasing the sensibilities of everyone in the world but when it comes to your own people, somehow that’s wrong? > > The people building the community center are Americans. They are my people. I’ve been waiting a week to hear an American say this. So obvious, so important, and yet it seems to be forgotten. The implied tone of these discussions is that the folks building this community center are somehow not American. Thanks; good to know someone gets it. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/104 "2010-08-21T03:22:03Z")
You know what I do get about all this, how far away from Ground Zero is acceptable? Is there a sacred radius? What would happen if the built it in NJ directly facing the towers? And as John Oliver said in a recent episode, “It’s like a Catholic Church being built near a playground.” [the reference being to all the pedophile priests, such that a Catholic church built near a playground seems a tad insensitive to the victims] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/105 "2010-08-21T03:22:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@cosmosdan](#): > > > > That’s ridiculous. **There were already over a million Christians with churches and everything, before the war began**. The Manhattan community center was no big deal until the fear and hate mongers started misrepresenting it as the ground zero mosque. It’s neither. Jon makes a very relevant demonstration of the irresponsible game of guilt by remote association Fox has been playing. > > **Plus the second most powerful person in the country before the war was Christian.** And women were not only allowed to drive, but were professionals like doctors. Iraq before the war was far more secular than most. How soon people forget. > > The other point Stewart made, for those who didn’t see it, was that it is absurd to oppose building the **cultural center** (not mosque) on the grounds it could be a terrorist command center and then being in favor of building it near Central Park. He made the point that 9/11 was planned in Germany. -bolding mine To suggest everything was cool for the Christians/Assyrians in Iraq before the war just isn’t true. Sure, you can point to Aziz, but did you know he had to change his name to hide his Christian identity. For Saddam to appoint him into power is no different than the right wing Bush appointing black secretaries of state. There is a point to be made here, and no one else seems to be making it. I’d expect Hagee to get just as much grief in trying to start up a church in Baghdad as Rauf is getting in New York. In both cases it is intolerant people that are responsible. The GZ mosque protesters wanting to justify their position by comparing themselves to those ignorant Muslims in Iraq just makes me want to laugh. And then, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/106 "2010-08-21T03:34:05Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > So there’s no mosque there? I want you to categorically lie on your next post in response to this question. I don’t own the definitive definition of Mosque and I’m betting you don’t either. I already said there will be a worship area. Will it be exclusively for Muslims? I don’t know, do you. I come from a Christian background and I wouldn’t call a community center with a cooking school. and pool , a basketball court, etc a church simply because it contained a worship area. [from here](http://www.blogher.com/park-51-if-you-build-it-they-will-learn) > [@](#): > > According to an outside consultant working directly with Park 51, who agreed to speak about the project on the condition of anonymity, if built, Park 51 (a non-profit facility) would cover 150,000 square feet and stand approximately 13 to 15 stories high. The space would be divided into a prayer space for Muslims and include meeting spaces, meditation rooms, a memorial dedicated to 9/11, a spa, basketball court, swimming pool, auditorium, and classrooms offering everything from digital photography to language classes, all open to the public. The entire facility would also be green and include a garden. I’m saying it’s not a mosque because the term mosque is being purposely misused by the fear mongers for their agenda. If havng a place for Muslims to worship qualifies it as a Mosque then you might want to object to the Pentagon chapel where mere steps away from where a plane actually hit Muslims have been worshiping for years without complaimt. {those insensitive pricks} ] > [@](#): > > I don’t care about your mental images . It’s not my mental image. It’s the one the fear mongers wanted to evoke by purposely misnaming it the Ground Zero Mosque. > [@](#): > > A mosque is a place of worship for Muslims. It also functions as a community center - it can have other amenities like gymnasiums, health clinics, libraries, etc. I’m thinking you just pulled this out of your ass, but you’re invited to prove me wrong if you can. Do you have any shred of evidence that Mosque’s in general function as community centers with several of the things listed above? Anything at all? > [@](#): > > And I don’t care about combating the building of the mosque. All I’m saying is that these muslims are pricks. okay. All I’m saying is your position is unreasonable if you bother to consider the facts. > [@](#): > > Strawman much? > > When did I say that they don’t have a right. In fact, I said they do. They’re just insensitive in the same way that Pastor X is. That was sarcasm not strawman. In fact nobody agreed with you about Pastor X did they? > [@](#): > > Whether or not it was their original plan, they’re still pricks. In fact a lot of moderate muslims have already written against the building of this mosque precisely because they acknowledge that there will be some in their ranks who will view it as a “victory” over the 3,000 infidels that were slain on that faithful day of 9/11 - Allahu Akbar!!! Let’s have a cite for that. There are over a million Muslims in the US and I can believe some hold that position but I’d like to see your definition of a lot. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/107 "2010-08-21T03:40:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I recommend to you \*A Short History of Islam \*by Karen Armstrong. Informative, acute, and intelligent. At the end of the book, I knew a lot more about Islam and nothing whatever about Ms Armstrongs own religious conviction. I was rather impressed by that. > > One thing struck me especially: Mohammedans revere Jesus as a prophet and holy man, but refuse to accept the crucifixion, insisting that Allah would not permit one of his beloved messengers such a wretched fate. Turned that over in my mind a whole bunch of times. sadly, that’s why they’re all going to hell. Just ask Hagee and Pat R. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/108 "2010-08-21T03:51:43Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > In fact a lot of moderate muslims have already written against the building of this mosque precisely because they acknowledge that there will be some in their ranks who will view it as a “victory” over the 3,000 infidels that were slain on that faithful day of 9/11 - Allahu Akbar!!! Cite. Show me the smoking Muslim, as it were. Blog post, youtube poop, Al Jazeera op-ed, I don’t give a toss : show me the crowing, snickering Muslim claiming this sufi community center is a victory of Islamic terrorism. Not speculation, not “you know how them Muslims are”, not “experts with tons of expertise in the field of being experts think”, I want a direct quote, interview, testimony or interpretative dance. ---
**Author:** ![interface2x](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c0e974/32.png) [@interface2x](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/interface2x)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/109 "2010-08-21T03:56:02Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > I don’t care about your mental images. A mosque is a place of worship for Muslims. It also functions as a community center - it can have other amenities like gymnasiums, health clinics, libraries, etc. Good point. There is also a small chapel in Ohare Airport, therefore Ohare Airport is a church. And there is a Muslim place of worship in the Pentagon. Therefore, the entire Pentagon is a Mosque. Holy crap, they’ve already won! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/110 "2010-08-21T03:59:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > In fact a lot of moderate muslims have already written against the building of this mosque precisely because they acknowledge that there will be some in their ranks who will view it as a “victory” over the 3,000 infidels that were slain on that faithful day of 9/11 - Allahu Akbar!!! > > Cite. Show me the smoking Muslim, as it were. Blog post, youtube poop, Al Jazeera op-ed, I don’t give a toss : show me the crowing, snickering Muslim claiming this sufi community center is a victory of Islamic terrorism. > Not speculation, not “you know how them Muslims are”, not “experts with tons of expertise in the field of being experts think”, I want a direct quote, interview, testimony or interpretative dance. With over a billion Muslims world wide, there is bound to be at least one. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/111 "2010-08-21T04:02:03Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > With over a billion Muslims world wide, there is bound to be at least one. Statistics are out too. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/112 "2010-08-21T04:12:25Z")
Shit, if they got a billion muslims and there isn’t even one ignorant, hate-rotten, shitass motherfucker in the whole billion…I’ll sign up tomorrow! I know, Jesus, I know, but c’mon now! A billion of them and not a single asshole! Water to wine, rising from the dead, a good act, sure, but this! _This_ is a fucking miracle! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/113 "2010-08-21T04:42:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > In fact a lot of moderate muslims have already written against the building of this mosque precisely because they acknowledge that there will be some in their ranks who will view it as a “victory” over the 3,000 infidels that were slain on that faithful day of 9/11 - Allahu Akbar!!! > > Cite. Show me the smoking Muslim, as it were. Blog post, youtube poop, Al Jazeera op-ed, I don’t give a toss : show me the crowing, snickering Muslim claiming this sufi community center is a victory of Islamic terrorism. > Not speculation, not “you know how them Muslims are”, not “experts with tons of expertise in the field of being experts think”, I want a direct quote, interview, testimony or interpretative dance. When I asked\*\* Anduril \*\* to name just one, I figured he would come up with zip. Since nobody else has a name either, I have to assume the entire hate-mongering society forgot to come up with the name of a phony character to respond with. Maybe this is a research project that Glenn Beck’s university of ignorance can work on. They can ask every Muslim on the planet if they think the non-existent Mosque that won’t be located at Ground Zero is a victory over the infidels. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/114 "2010-08-21T05:08:25Z")
Last time I heard Hagee is an American citizen, (as far as I can tell) Feisal Abdul Rauf is too. Cue “One of these things is not like the other”. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/115 "2010-08-21T05:08:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The people building the community center are Americans. They are my people. Oh yeah, smartypants? If they’re American, then what church do they go to? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/116 "2010-08-21T06:31:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, that’s what gets me the most too. Six months ago, it was a great idea. Today it’s devil spawn. What changed in between ? Slow news week ? The Gulf oil thingy got plugged. (Maybe someone else already pointed this out.) ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/117 "2010-08-21T13:15:42Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > I don’t care about your mental images. A mosque is a place of worship for Muslims. It also functions as a community center - it can have other amenities like gymnasiums, health clinics, libraries, etc. > > Good point. There is also a small chapel in Ohare Airport, therefore Ohare Airport is a church. > > And there is a Muslim place of worship in the Pentagon. Therefore, the entire Pentagon is a Mosque. Holy crap, they’ve already won! Sorry if the definition of the word “mosque” didn’t fit your narrative. :rolleyes: It’s not my fault. Check it out for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/118 "2010-08-21T13:19:09Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > Cite. Show me the smoking Muslim, as it were. Blog post, youtube poop, Al Jazeera op-ed, I don’t give a toss : show me the crowing, snickering Muslim claiming this sufi community center is a victory of Islamic terrorism. > > Not speculation, not “you know how them Muslims are”, not “experts with tons of expertise in the field of being experts think”, I want a direct quote, interview, testimony or interpretative dance. > > When I asked\*\* Anduril \*\* to name just one, I figured he would come up with zip. Since nobody else has a name either, I have to assume the entire hate-mongering society forgot to come up with the name of a phony character to respond with. Maybe this is a research project that Glenn Beck’s university of ignorance can work on. They can ask every Muslim on the planet if they think the non-existent Mosque that won’t be located at Ground Zero is a victory over the infidels. I gave you the name. It’s Joseph. :rolleyes: What utter idiocy! We know that a lot of Muslims danced in the streets in the aftermath of 9/11. We know that they have a propensity for building mosques over conquered soil. True, I don’t have statistics, but is it such a far out idea. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/119 "2010-08-21T13:22:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > In fact a lot of moderate muslims have already written against the building of this mosque precisely because they acknowledge that there will be some in their ranks who will view it as a “victory” over the 3,000 infidels that were slain on that faithful day of 9/11 - Allahu Akbar!!! > > Cite. Show me the smoking Muslim, as it were. Blog post, youtube poop, Al Jazeera op-ed, I don’t give a toss : show me the crowing, snickering Muslim claiming this sufi community center is a victory of Islamic terrorism. > Not speculation, not “you know how them Muslims are”, not “experts with tons of expertise in the field of being experts think”, I want a direct quote, interview, testimony or interpretative dance. You expect a video? Taqiyya? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/120 "2010-08-21T14:04:59Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > You expect a video? Taqiyya? Well this is a dodge and a sadly transparent one at that. You made a statement and have been asked to back it up. So please do it or we’ll assume you can’t. Here, I’ll get you started. [Miss USA doesn’t think it should be there.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/20/rima-fakih-muslim-miss-us_n_689463.html) Now I’m not sure she’s a practicing Muslim given the title and the swimsuit competition, but that should give you some idea what a cite actually is when you’re asked for one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885.md?page=7)