# Jon Stewart and Charlton Heston on Ground Zero Mosque **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885 "2010-08-20T16:44:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/141 "2010-08-23T18:44:43Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > And the fact that there were a lot of muslims cheering the 9/11 explosions > > That is clearly irrelevant. I would very much like to punch those specific people directly in the face, but it’s irrelevant. Can you name just one of these muslims you want to assault? Just \*one \*name? And do you have a notarized statement from that supposed muslim (was he wearing a sign?) that he was in fact a muslim at the time and approved of the 9/11 attack? Is there DNA evidence that he is actually the person that signed the statement? Because if you don’t it didn’t happen. You just hate all muslims. Why don’t you go pick one at random and punch them in the face? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/142 "2010-08-23T18:53:44Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Taqiyya? As covered in other threads, this concept does not exist in mainstream Islam except in the highly limited definition of “lying to a tyrant who wishes to punish you for being Muslim”. While we’re at it, I still want to know when Lower Manhattan became “conquered territory” by any definition of the word ever. > [@Anduril](#): > > "The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” > > “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61. " > > They want to rehabilitate the image of Islam. No better reason to support the man and the vast majority of peaceful, ordinary Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/143 "2010-08-23T19:19:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > "The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” > > > > “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61. " > > > > They want to rehabilitate the image of Islam. > > No better reason to support the man and the vast majority of peaceful, ordinary Muslims. Seriously. How is this a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/144 "2010-08-23T19:33:32Z")
> [@blanx](#): > > Seriously. How is this a bad thing? I have noticed that there’s this idea sometimes that if someone who is believed to be prima fascie evil does objectively good things, the goodness of those deeds is considered to be proportional to the evil he’s hiding with them. For example, the evangelical conception of The Antichrist in media like the Left Behind novels essentially has us instructed to fight hard against anyone who shows both the desire and the ability to increase the amount of peace in the world, because of COURSE that means he’s personally setting us all up for a sneak attack. Add in the concept of taqiyya, and it’s pretty easy for (stupid) people to assume that any moderate to liberal Muslim leader is actually A) a preternaturally good actor and B) a slavering jihad who got kicked out of al-Qaeda for being a little TOO crazy about killing non-believers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/145 "2010-08-23T19:56:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, let me ask you a question. Which scenario do you think is more likely to happen: > > Park 51 construction goes ahead, and the community center is opened. Radical Wahabbist Muslims declare that this shows Islam is spreading in the west, and is a sure sign of the inevitable victory of Allah over the decadent Americans. > > Park 51 construction is halted, either through direct legal action, or because the group trying to build it give up in the face of overwhelming criticism. Radical Wahabbist Muslims declare that this shows that the west is reeling in terror of Islam, and is a sure sign of the inevitable victory of Allah over the decadent Americans. > > And the answers is: they’re both equally likely. Because the people who say this sort of thing are demagogues. They’ll interpret any event in a way that best promotes their personal beliefs. Any thing America does that touches on Islam in the remotest fashion is going to be seized on as an example of how Islam is better than America, and is sure to triumph. That’s why there’s no point in listening to these people: they always come to the same conclusions, regardless of the data presented to them. > > The analogy between this and Fox News is left as an exercise to the reader. Who cares about what committed radicals think? I’m more worried about the masses. In your case 2, if the radicals tell the masses that America hates Islam, and prevents a mosque from being built, how can this be refuted? In your case 1, even if the masses were dumb enough to believe the radicals, it would inspire more apathy than rage. Fox and Palin and Gingrich couldn’t be doing more for the radicals if they were on their payroll. Which, in the case of Fox, maybe they are. (So I agree with you, in case it isn’t clear.) ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/146 "2010-08-24T14:23:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > The anger is directed because of the insensitivity of that group. You’re all for appeasing the sensibilities of everyone in the world but when it comes to your own people, somehow that’s wrong? > > The people building the community center are Americans. They are my people. …you know what? All of the arguments made in this thread, all of the discussion about how “it’s not really a mosque” and “no one will celebrate it as a victory” and whatever else, all of it is kind of unnecessary, isn’t it? The above is the point. It’s the winning argument. These _are_ my people. I’m a white Italian raised Catholic and since… er… lapsed. But the folks who are building this thing - call it whatever you want, because it frankly doesn’t matter even a tiny little bit whether it’s a mosque or a community center or a nail salon - they are as much “my own people” as anyone you can name. **Anduril,** what is your answer to that? Look, September 11 was an act of division. It was perpetrated by guys who believed that there was, one the one side, them, and on the other side, us. And now, **Anduril** , all these years later, you’ve bought into their mindset. You’ve swallowed their narrative: Muslims versus Americans, let’s duel to the death. Fuck that. I don’t just “not mind” them building this thing; I’m thrilled. Can’t say anything to the assholes who were actually responsible for 9-11, of course, because they’re happily dead, names forgotten, but you can speak to those who feel as they did. And what you can say is, _fuck you._ We’re going to build a concrete representation of our unity, and we’re going to do it on the same spot where you tried to divide us. And if some Muslim kid walking home from the fucking pool that you think is insensitive walks past some Christian kid walking home from a church that you don’t, and if it happens every day for two years and eventually, the two start to regard each other as nothing alien, just part of the scenery, if that only happens once? It’s still a better way to honor the dead then staring eternally at a few acres of land and calling it “sacred.” This whole subject pisses me off. Gah. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/147 "2010-08-24T14:32:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are already [Christian churches](http://www.stchcathedral.org.bh/Olive-Branch-2005/baghdad.htm) in Baghdad. Now, if Mr. Hagee decides to build a cathedral in the middle of Baghdad to honor the victory of Christian soldiers, that _might_ be considered just a tad insensitive. There are at least two Bishops of Baghdad (Anglican and RCC) so there is by definition already two Cathedrals. I do agree that building any kind of monument to honor “the victory of Christian soldiers” would be insensitive, and offensive both to the locals and to the soldiers who weren’t all Christian nor had they gone there “to fight for Christ”. Re **Miller** ’s wonderful response, I have a picture of a graffito from San Francisco which says, paraprhased from memory, “my people, your people, when will you realize we’re all the same people?” I think it’s one of the most beautiful photographs I’ve ever taken. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/148 "2010-08-25T19:07:28Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > …(2) Why is it that the most meaningful and moving and honest discussion of so many issues today comes from a comedian? Though it lacks the mea-culpa tone in the Jon Stewart clip, there’s another ‘quasi-comedian’ (on the much derided FNC) whose thoughts on the Ground Zero mosque are both meaningful and humorous (in an ironic sense): Greg Gutfeld’s plan to “[Open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men…adjacent to the mosque Park51](http://www.dailygut.com/?i=4696)”. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/149 "2010-08-25T19:26:01Z")
I’d quite honestly like to hear **Anduril** respond to my [post #61](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12824337&postcount=61). Also, I stand with **Miller**. These are Americans; they _are_ my people. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/150 "2010-08-25T20:07:58Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > I’d quite honestly like to hear **Anduril** respond to my [post #61](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12824337&postcount=61). > > Also, I stand with **Miller**. These are Americans; they _are_ my people. I thought, and I could be wrong - I’m having a hard time finding a definative answer via Google - that el-Gamal and Mousa were Egyptian and that Rauf was Kuwaiti. Does anyone know for sure? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/151 "2010-08-25T20:45:01Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > I thought, and I could be wrong - I’m having a hard time finding a definative answer via Google - that el-Gamal and Mousa were Egyptian and that Rauf was Kuwaiti. > > Does anyone know for sure? According to his [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf) entry, Rauf is a “Kuwati born Arab-American.” Given that he’s been living and working in NYC since at least the early eighties, it seems pretty clear that he must have become a citizen at some point. I don’t think they issue work visas that last for thirty years. [This interview](http://donny-allen.us/?p=1203) with el-Gamal and Mousa describes el-Gamal as a “Brooklyn-born New Yorker.” I didn’t see anything about where Nour Mousa was born, though. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/152 "2010-08-25T20:49:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > > > I thought, and I could be wrong - I’m having a hard time finding a definative answer via Google - that el-Gamal and Mousa were Egyptian and that Rauf was Kuwaiti. > > > > Does anyone know for sure? > > According to his [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf) entry, Rauf is a “Kuwati born Arab-American.” Given that he’s been living and working in NYC since at least the early eighties, it seems pretty clear that he must have become a citizen at some point. I don’t think they issue work visas that last for thirty years. [This interview](http://donny-allen.us/?p=1203) with el-Gamal and Mousa describes el-Gamal as a “Brooklyn-born New Yorker.” I didn’t see anything about where Nour Mousa was born, though. Cool, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/153 "2010-08-25T21:14:07Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > "The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.” > > “We want to push back against the extremists,” added Imam Feisal, 61. " > > They want to rehabilitate the image of Islam. Since this is the only post you made since I asked you _again_ about the relevance of your previous statements, I can only assume you agree with this quotation and you were just extremely clumsy in expressing your previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![Shark\_Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Shark\_Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shark_Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/154 "2010-08-25T21:22:33Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > _\_…the most barbaric religion today. I think this can also be debated. Or is it just an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885/155 "2010-08-25T21:35:37Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > They want to rehabilitate the image of Islam. Don’t you think that they should? After all, shitheads are erroneously claiming that anyone with a turban is a suicide bomber. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jon-stewart-and-charlton-heston-on-ground-zero-mosque/550885.md?page=7)