# Jonathan Chance: So What is the Official List of Things You Want Me to Remain Silent About **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 12, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697 "2013-11-12T03:49:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/202 "2013-11-15T14:44:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Is this a serious question? > > If so, them respectfully you know painfully little about American history, have some absurdly distorted views on what does and doesn’t constitute racism, or are aggressively in denial of reality. You sound a lot like **Der Trihs** , your opinion should be taken as fact without supporting evidence. You know, like Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/203 "2013-11-15T14:45:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If I understand the topic under discussion, the issue was the mean IQ of 70 that the _Bell Curve_ authors “found” in sub-Saharan Africa. In the US, persons with IQs below 70 are mentally retarded as a matter of law. **Modeator note** Take this to another forum, not About This Message Board. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/204 "2013-11-15T15:07:41Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > You sound a lot like **Der Trihs** , your opinion should be taken as fact without supporting evidence. You know, like Republicans. **MODERATOR NOTE:** Stop it with the snark. Not appropriate in this forum nor in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/205 "2013-11-15T20:11:53Z")
This may be the worst case of thread creep I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/206 "2013-11-16T00:01:16Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/207 "2013-11-16T00:36:59Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Dammit, I’ve been trying to post this for two hours and clients are on fire. My apologies. > > So, here I am (to quote Firefly). > > The important takeaways here are two things: > > First, that I don’t wish Der Trihs to limit himself from posting on any topic whatsoever. I don’t care about what he posts and want to offer no restrictions on topic at all. > > Second is that I believe he can be an immensely valuable poster for Great Debates provided he can learn to control his knee jerk reactions and his temper. > > I strongly encourage him to follow the advice upthread to take walks around the block prior to making any of his sort of bomb-throwing posts. > > In truth, most of his posts are worth respect and hearing out, but the minority of them that are over the top distract from the other 99%. Not only that but they tend to refocus threads away from discussion and towards his over-the-top posts. That damages debate and that’s counter to the goals of Great Debates. > > An example of the posting style I see - where Der Trihs makes blanket assumptions about those with whom he is arguing - can be seen in the OP here. Der Trihs accuses me of ‘political bias’ and seems to believe (I’m prepared to be corrected) that my politics are right wing. In truth, I’m an actual registered member of the Democratic Party and quite lefty (moreso than most) on many, many issues. I have both run campaigns and been a candidate as well as managed outreach programs and fundraised for D candidates. These days you don’t get more true blue than me. > > Measure for Measure, for the record I felt a need to check the bushes to see if you were lurking there based on your analysis of my politics. It’s creepy. > > Now, this doesn’t apply to just Der Trihs, and note: this thread will NOT turn into a bash DT thread or bad things will happen, but to all posters. It should not be too much - in a forum dedicated toward debate - that tempers will run high. But too strong an invective only harms the mission, and thereby harms other posters. > > It is perfectly possible to say “I hate all X” with words that don’t accuse all of a group of being some sort of horrible whatevers. It’s not only possible but easy. Rhetoric and debate and communication is a muscle, the more one uses it the stronger it becomes. I encourage all to do so. > > Also, I haven’t worn a goatee since college and don’t plan to start. The thing is, **Der Trihs** sincerely holds his beliefs. And not only does he really believe the things he posts, he considers them obvious. So when he says that George Bush invaded Iraq because he wanted to kill brown people or Anti-abortion advocates are motivated by a desire to see women suffer, that to him should be no more controversial than saying pro athletes are physically fit, or that scientists are generally of above average intelligence. In other words you’re asking him to tone down over the top remarks that he cannot see as over the top. So I see three choices for him: —Voluntarily stop posting in GD —Keep posting as he does, and eventually get banned —Or, as you suggest, pretend to be someone he isn’t and to hold beliefs he doesn’t hold. I’m not thinking any of those are good options for him. NB, I think his views are often extreme and ill-conceived. I’m just trying to look at the picture from his perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/208 "2013-11-16T02:55:18Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/209 "2013-11-17T01:48:48Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > The thing is, **Der Trihs** sincerely holds his beliefs. And not only does he really believe the things he posts, he considers them obvious. So when he says that George Bush invaded Iraq because he wanted to kill brown people or Anti-abortion advocates are motivated by a desire to see women suffer, that to him should be no more controversial than saying pro athletes are physically fit, or that scientists are generally of above average intelligence. In other words you’re asking him to tone down over the top remarks that he cannot see as over the top. > > So I see three choices for him: > > —Voluntarily stop posting in GD > —Keep posting as he does, and eventually get banned > —Or, as you suggest, pretend to be someone he isn’t and to hold beliefs he doesn’t hold. > > I’m not thinking any of those are good options for him. > > NB, I think his views are often extreme and ill-conceived. I’m just trying to look at the picture from his perspective. But the thing is, it doesn’t take much effort to tack on a few restrictive clauses and extenuating phrases, and it comes out to much the same thing, and perfectly okay. e.g., “There was far less reluctance to invade Iraq because of the racial and ethnic distance between them and most Americans; the Congress would have been much more reluctant to allow a war against a mostly white or mostly Christian nation.” Gets most of the point across, from behind a fig-leaf of a non-falsifiable hypothetical. This kind of qualification is a necessary tool to learn to use in general discussions and debates. I’m all for people saying what they believe…but wrap it in a shroud of diplomacy and it’s less likely to be directly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/210 "2013-11-17T17:08:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But the thing is, it doesn’t take much effort to tack on a few restrictive clauses and extenuating phrases, and it comes out to much the same thing, and perfectly okay. e.g., “There was far less reluctance to invade Iraq because of the racial and ethnic distance between them and most Americans; the Congress would have been much more reluctant to allow a war against a mostly white or mostly Christian nation.” Gets most of the point across, from behind a fig-leaf of a non-falsifiable hypothetical. > > This kind of qualification is a necessary tool to learn to use in general discussions and debates. I’m all for people saying what they believe…but wrap it in a shroud of diplomacy and it’s less likely to be directly offensive. Agreed! Der could have easily pointed out the same Americans who enthusiastically backed the invasion of Iraq had the completely opposite reaction when Israel, in recent years, twice invaded the white Christian nation of Lebanon. Der could have reminded us all of the massive protests against these and how Cheney, Bush and their neocon supporters were all outraged by the invasions. Of course, I think we all know how such an argument would have turned out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/211 "2013-11-17T17:17:13Z")
Lebanon is not a Christian country. But I don’t think it would be as simple as you guys think for DT to change his posting, if he really believes what he says. It’s not just a matter of throwing a few qualifiers in here and there, especially since much of what posts is factually incorrect. Not seeing a whole lot of difference between: \*Gun owners would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns. \* -and- _Many Gun owner would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns._ ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/212 "2013-11-17T21:46:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Lebanon is not a Christian country. > > But I don’t think it would be as simple as you guys think for DT to change his posting, if he really believes what he says. It’s not just a matter of throwing a few qualifiers in here and there, especially since much of what posts is factually incorrect. > > Not seeing a whole lot of difference between: > > \*Gun owners would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns. > \* > -and- > > _Many Gun owner would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns._ Heh. That claim could be presented as an hypothesis and discussed in a full paragraph. I will note that the sort of retooling in this hypothetical or the retooling advocated by Ibn Warraq or Trinopus requires some combination of effort, intelligence, memory, articulateness, time and wordsmithing. It’s not easy. Also, such a process tends to necessarily moderate or at least offset extreme positions. I’ve done this a couple of times with selected Der Trihs posts. One asserted Republican intransigence, the other characterized 19th and early 20th century white supremacists IIRC. I respectfully part company with Trinopus regarding the contention that the process doesn’t take too much effort (with some admitted exceptions). I agree that it is, “a necessary tool to learn to use in general discussions and debates,” if one wants to conduct best practices. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/213 "2013-11-17T22:14:54Z")
Perhaps a little off-topic, but maybe helpful to some posters who are asked to give more cites. **Der** , I want you to stick around and I often agree that things you post are bleedin’ obvious so that finding a cite seems silly. (And sometimes I don’t, like when you say women are out get men on rape charges.) But apparently people need evidence to understand that opposition to abortion is related to wanting to see women suffer for their sins, so help them out. Get some reference management software! You’ll love it, I promise! I use Zotero, but there are loads. It works in your browser and can also work with your word processor. Whenever you find an article that relates to a subject you like, immediately click the button. That’s all, one button right there in your browser. You can keep different files with different cites, eg “Republicans hate women”, “Republicans hate brown people”, “Christianity is incompatible with morality”, “women want to get men on rape charges”. Every time you find an article (or youtube vid or power point or film) you just click, and it saves it automatically. Then when someone asks for a cite, you go to your reference manager, pick out the ones that are relevant and drop them right in the thread. It’s just a small part of all the stuff in this thread, but it might help with some of the criticism you get. * * * But yeah, if Republicans wanted a word other than Conservative to describe their own position, it would probably be intransigent. It’s not only inoffensive and accurate, “I am intransigent” would make them a proud slogan to go with the elephant. In fact, [our own Master](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1481/why-is-the-republican-party-called-the-gop) tells us the elephant means Republicans are “unmovable”. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/214 "2013-11-17T22:36:55Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Get some reference management software! You’ll love it, I promise! I use Zotero, but there are loads. I once used Delicious, but moved to Diigo when the former changed business models. They are online bookmarking websites with Firefox plugins. Another online tool is Pocket, for articles you want to bring to the board later. Nice point gracer. This probably deserves its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/215 "2013-11-18T00:02:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > . . . Not seeing a whole lot of difference between: > > \*Gun owners would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns. > \* > -and- > > _Many Gun owner would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns._ No, of course not. But how about “Many gun rights advocates seem to favor their abstract legal rights more highly than the safety of their own children.” Throw out the “cheerfully sacrifice” shit – I absolutely despise this kind of language! Stick to a claim that – wrong or right – is a legitimate rhetorical viewpoint. It avoids straw-manning and false personal characterization. It says pretty much the same thing, but is not intrinsically fallacious. (I’m not saying it’s true; just suggesting a less trollish way of phrasing it.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/216 "2013-11-18T00:06:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . . . I respectfully part company with Trinopus regarding the contention that the process doesn’t take too much effort . . . Well, you’d cheerfully sacrifice content in favor of laziness… (((JOKING!))) Like anything, diplomatic phrasing of one’s viewpoints improves with practice. (Alas, I’ve been doing this for so long, it’s hard for me to make a direct declarative statement without a cloud of terms and conditions!) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/217 "2013-11-18T00:09:05Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > . . . Get some reference management software! You’ll love it, I promise! I use Zotero, but there are loads. . . . > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . . . Nice point gracer. This probably deserves its own thread. I’d never heard of these! Gotter look into 'em! Thank you! And, yeah, guys, an IMHO thread, please! ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/218 "2013-11-18T00:55:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > \*Gun owners would cheerfully sacrifice their own children in order to keep their guns. How about “In the face of so many children dying by guns, it is unfathomable that gun owners remain committed to fighting simple restrictions that don’t affect the fact that they can still easily own, carry and buy more guns!!!” ? or something similar It gets the point across without the hyperbole. So much is wrapped in your example (and I’m not sure if it is a direct cite or not, but it’s close enough) such as: 1. It accuses gun owners of not arguing in good faith. They don’t earnestly believe that gun control does not reduce crime; they know it does but have ulterior motives. 2. Gun owners would hold this position if it affected their own children, as opposed to an abstract realization that it affect other children. 3. If given the choice a priori, they would still allow their own children to die. 4. They would do it cheerfully. #1 is a fair topic for debate (although, wrong IMHO), but #2 through 4 are just firebombs that are unverifiable, provocative, and unnecessary. They are such strong charges that without proof they are simply insults and shouldn’t be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/219 "2013-11-18T00:57:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d never heard of these! Gotter look into 'em! Thank you! And, yeah, guys, an IMHO thread, please! [Here you go!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=708065) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/220 "2013-11-18T20:16:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > How about “In the face of so many children dying by guns, it is unfathomable that gun owners remain committed to fighting simple restrictions that don’t affect the fact that they can still easily own, carry and buy more guns!!!” ? or something similar > > [snip] > > #1 is a fair topic for debate (although, wrong IMHO), but #2 through 4 are just firebombs that are unverifiable, provocative, and unnecessary. They are such strong charges that without proof they are simply insults and shouldn’t be tolerated. Your proposed wording is a completely different point. #2 is especially important for the original statement, that _even if their own children were in the crossfire,_ they still would support gun ownership over safety. And the thing is, stated _that_ way, it’s true for some of them. Now the thing is the line “cheerfully sacrifice” almost suggests they would walk their children out into the parking lot or public square and blast them in the head to prove their point, and that is certainly hyperbolic and inflammatory. But the thing is, for the people being discussed, their argument is not more gun control, it’s more guns. Their children at risk from gun violence is a necessary evil, the alternative being their children at risk from gun violence _and_ not having guns to defend their children. I’m not trying to make this a forum on gun control positions. Rather, the point is that some people find inflammatory statements are necessary for framing the argument to try to show the hypocrisy/futility/stupidity/callousness/whatever of that argument. It runs the risk of strawmanning, but done well, it serves to highlight the flaws in an argument. Satire is a well-respected form of rhetoric. My point is that your effort to rewrite **Der** **Trihs** ’s arguments changes the argument to the point of being a completely different position. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697/221 "2013-11-18T20:49:19Z")
This thread is really going off in different directions … which is not a bad thing per se, just that it’s not really appropriate to About This Message Board Topics that are better served in different fora should go there. You can link to those new threads here if you like, but develop them elsewhere, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-so-what-is-the-official-list-of-things-you-want-me-to-remain-silent-about/673697.md?page=12)