# Jonathan Chance, where IS that list of things I'm supposed to remain silent on? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [May 10, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147 "2014-05-10T21:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/41 "2014-05-11T02:11:55Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > You know what caused me to make that thread? It was a debate I was having with my friends at lunch about abortion. After, I thought, “Why are conservatives against abortion? I thought they were for freedom and all.” So then I asked in GD. > > Can you imagine that? This only reason this argument between **Der Trihs** , **Colibri** and **Jonathan Chance** that is happening and why **Der** \*\*Trihs \*\*received a warning is only because me and my friends decided to discuss abortion one day at lunch…lol. Glad to see that the discussion was able to kept at the high school lunch table level. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/42 "2014-05-11T02:18:01Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I would point out that **Brazil84** was never modded for saying that Africans have an average IQ of 70, a statement just as inflammatory as anything **Der Trihs** has ever said, and furthermore is a declaratory statement which is self-evident nonsense in addition to being offensive. And I know the mods were aware of his posts, since GD mods engaged Brazil84 as posters for some reason. So I’m not sure why **Trihs** is being singled out here. It’s not like he’s derailing the thread, which, let’s face it, is a pretty dumb thread to begin with. (“Abortion you say? Now that you mention it that does seem like it could be a controversial issue. I’d love to hear the points pro and con, which I have never heard before, as I was raised in a cave on Mars.”) I’m no fan of Brazzy and have certainly felt this board has been at times far too light on the board’s resident scientific racists, but when they do step over the line and/or attempt to derail threads they get modded and some have been banned. Beyond that, I’m not sure Der wants to take that route since he’s made at least as extreme comments about women without getting modded. If the mods really wanted to ban him they’d have done so by now. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/43 "2014-05-11T02:30:28Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > You know what caused me to make that thread? It was a debate I was having with my friends at lunch about abortion. After, I thought, “Why are conservatives against abortion? I thought they were for freedom and all.” So then I asked in GD. > > Can you imagine that? This only reason this argument between **Der Trihs** , **Colibri** and **Jonathan Chance** that is happening and why **Der** \*\*Trihs \*\*received a warning is only because me and my friends decided to discuss abortion one day at lunch…lol. It’s even funnier because the correct answer (IMHO) was provided in two words, in first post replying to the OP (“Because Jesus”). Seriously – that explains most of why, historically, these two opinions came to be generous (though hardly always) grouped together. The thread found have been closed right then and there, preventing the thin ice our dear Der Trihs finds himself on now! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/44 "2014-05-11T04:11:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And as I hear the term usually used trolling by definition is dishonest; if it’s honest, it isn’t trolling, whatever else it may be. Nope, people can be offering their honest opinions, but still be trolling. It’s all in HOW you express that opinion. To use an extreme example, look at the Westboro Baptist Church. Phelps may genuinely have believed that God hated gays, but there’s no doubt he was also trolling (looking for attention and trying to piss people off). Not all trolls work the same way. (Not saying that they weren’t assholes for what they did, or that their beliefs weren’t fucked up. Just giving an example) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/45 "2014-05-11T04:13:56Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > This only reason this argument between **Der Trihs** , **Colibri** and **Jonathan Chance** that is happening and why **Der** \*\*Trihs \*\*received a warning is only because me and my friends decided to discuss abortion one day at lunch…lol. Not really. If it hadn’t been your thread it would have been something else. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/46 "2014-05-11T05:26:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, when my pregnant friend says her baby [kid] is kicking, that’s inflammatory? Or does she have to actually use the word “kid”? No. It is, strictly speaking, inaccurate, but for casual conversation, it’s a perfectly understandable example of idiomatic English. In context, we all know what she means. Likewise, if your pregnant friend were to say, “I’m going to murder this kid if she doesn’t stop kicking my bladder,” it would be hyperbolic and again, strictly speaking, inaccurate, but as a common English expression, we’d all understand what she means. In the context of knowing that she is pregnant, it’s natural for us to understand her addressing her future progeny as if it were already a child, when it is really a fetus or embryo, or even a blastocyte. The inaccuracy of the speech is not an impediment nor is it meant in any pejorative fashion. OTOH. In the context of an anti-abortionist speaking about women who get abortions as “murderers” and “baby-killers”, it’s clear that the terms are meant pejoratively. In that case, it is entirely reasonable for people on the pro-choice side to object to having their (perfectly legal let’s not overlook) actions defined solely in the hyperbolic, pejorative, and yes, inaccurate, terms of their opponents. Calling abortion, murder, and women who’ve had abortions, baby-killers, is inflammatory, inaccurate and well-poisoning. That sort of language should be discourage in honest debate. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/47 "2014-05-11T08:14:23Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > No. It is, strictly speaking, inaccurate, but for casual conversation, it’s a perfectly understandable example of idiomatic English. In context, we all know what she means. Likewise, if your pregnant friend were to say, “I’m going to murder this kid if she doesn’t stop kicking my bladder,” it would be hyperbolic and again, strictly speaking, inaccurate, but as a common English expression, we’d all understand what she means. > > In the context of knowing that she is pregnant, it’s natural for us to understand her addressing her future progeny as if it were already a child, when it is really a fetus or embryo, or even a blastocyte. The inaccuracy of the speech is not an impediment nor is it meant in any pejorative fashion. > > OTOH. In the context of an anti-abortionist speaking about women who get abortions as “murderers” and “baby-killers”, it’s clear that the terms are meant pejoratively. In that case, it is entirely reasonable for people on the pro-choice side to object to having their (perfectly legal let’s not overlook) actions defined solely in the hyperbolic, pejorative, and yes, inaccurate, terms of their opponents. > > Calling abortion, murder, and women who’ve had abortions, baby-killers, is inflammatory, inaccurate and well-poisoning. That sort of language should be discourage in honest debate. tl;dr: While she wants it, it’s a kid if she wants it to be. The moment she doesn’t, it’s a clump of cells. This is scientific, objective truth and not to be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/48 "2014-05-11T12:14:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The quote function is your friend. But as noted, if you think they should have been moderated, report them. If you didn’t report them, and you won’t quote them here, complaining about them is pretty silly. I would disagree. If the quoted posts were allowed without being called out as “inflammatory”, there is no reason to believe that **Der Trihs** response **in kind** would receive a warning. In my reading, **Terr** made two hateful and divisive statements, and **Der Trihs** responded flamboyantly to underscore that hatefulness. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/49 "2014-05-11T12:45:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Two examples: > > No it wouldn’t because it doesn’t fit the behavior of pro-choice people, while my accusations do fit the behavior of anti-choice people. > > And really, you haven’t noticed the anti-choicers using rhetoric like that? They certainly do talk about pro-choice people that way. THAT is what you are whining about? THOSE are your examples?! :rolleyes: Dude, I’m pro-choice myself, but don’t you understand that the other side views abortion as the ending of a life? That it is killing an innocent? With all your piss and vinegar in this thread I really expected to see something MUCH more emotional and inflammatory as what you cited. You really need to get some perspective between with the world thinks and what you think. Hell, even between what people who are on your side think and what you think. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/50 "2014-05-11T12:46:59Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I have to agree with Der Trihs. Referring to abortion as “murder” and the fetus as “kid” certainly is inflammatory. It also poisons the well for any further discussion. > > Yes, I know. Some people sincerely believe that abortion is the killing of a child. Those beliefs, no matter how sincere, are neither scientifically nor legally correct. Allowing them to frame the discussion to suit their unscientific and inaccurate beliefs prevents any genuine discussion of the topic. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/51 "2014-05-11T12:53:48Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > It’s even funnier because the correct answer (IMHO) was provided in two words, in first post replying to the OP (“Because Jesus”). Seriously – that explains most of why, historically, these two opinions came to be generous (though hardly always) grouped together. The thread found have been closed right then and there, preventing the thin ice our dear Der Trihs finds himself on now! That’s not true for all who oppose abortion. The position that life begins prior to birth is not held only by people due to religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/52 "2014-05-11T13:11:50Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > You know what caused me to make that thread? It was a debate I was having with my friends at lunch about abortion. After, I thought, “Why are conservatives against abortion? I thought they were for freedom and all.” So then I asked in GD. Just out of curiosity, did you REALLY not know that many people (conservative and otherwise) view abortion as murder? That being said, when I first saw that thread I thought: Sheesh, some high school kid can come in here, post a question that’s been dealt with a billion times before on this MB, and have have people at each others’ throats within minutes. > [@](#): > > Can you imagine that? This only reason this argument between **Der Trihs** , **Colibri** and **Jonathan Chance** that is happening and why **Der** \*\*Trihs \*\*received a warning is only because me and my friends decided to discuss abortion one day at lunch…lol. No, he’s posted that before, almost word-for-word, and been warned in the past. It’s SOP whenever he shows up in a thread about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/53 "2014-05-11T13:20:46Z")
And the really sad thing is that it would be so easy to post those sentiments without crossing any lines. Der Trihs, if you really believe what you post - and I believe you are sincere - and you believe that’s the only way you can express such beliefs then I honestly don’t know how to provide guidance to you. Any beginning debater - which you are certainly not a beginner after these many years - would be able to demolish someone’s argument without resorting to hostility and such. Without that, it simply looks like you’re a rhetorical bully…someone who attempts to win arguments by pushing and shoving instead of by actual debate. Again, I encourage you to learn better ways to express yourself and your opinions. You’re a valuable member of the SDMB, I concur with the others who have said so, but your behavior in Great Debates from time to time takes away a great deal of that value. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/54 "2014-05-11T13:38:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s SOP whenever he shows up in a thread about abortion. Or religion… or politics… or feminism… or the military… The only things he seems to be able to post calmly and rationally about are science fiction and comic books. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/55 "2014-05-11T14:02:58Z")
Save yourself, **Der Trihs**. It really is possible for decent folks to disagree on issues like this. Many years ago, I really thought that conservatives could not be decent folks. But I learned, largely in the Navy, that many conservatives (and liberals and moderates) would gladly risk their lives to save mine. They were decent folks (well, most of them), even if they’re wrong on many political issues. That doesn’t mean that Republican Congressman aren’t total pricks who are hurting America, or that much of Republican rhetoric doesn’t seem to often coincidentally and suspiciously appeal to racist white people, but it means that many of their supporters might just be wrong for honest reasons. One can fiercely oppose the Republican and conservative agenda in America without insisting that all or most Republicans and conservatives are evil, and I think such demonization is counter-productive. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/56 "2014-05-11T14:06:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m no fan of Brazzy and have certainly felt this board has been at times far too light on the board’s resident scientific racists, but when they do step over the line and/or attempt to derail threads they get modded and some have been banned. > > Beyond that, I’m not sure **Der** wants to take that route since he’s made at least as extreme comments about women without getting modded. > > If the mods really wanted to ban him they’d have done so by now. I think there is a good reason why \*\*Trihs \*\*hasn’t been banned. I believe he hasn’t ever (that I know of) crossed the line into “banned-dom”. Ooooh, he seems pretty close so often, especially if you aren’t aligned with his world-view. But his opinions have always seemed to me to be honestly held and forthright. Because of that, I don’t think that his thoughts can be viewed as trolling and I suspect the moderators have a similar opinion An intellectually all-encompassing message board like the SDMB is at its best with the input of posters like **Trihs**. Indeed it’s at it best with strident voices from all corners of the marketplace of ideas. I do have one particular bone to pick with the popular pastime of shitting on **Der Trihs’** posts… that is, while I agree that sometimes, on some subjects, he gets a little too worked up and abrasive, I have never agreed with the criticism of his views on theism. On that subject (and also others) he is, apparently, a person who is not afraid to call a spade a spade. I often think of him as the boy who baldly stated that the Emperor was naked even as the other citizens maintained the polite fiction that he was wearing beautiful new garments. IOW, he is making the argument that religion and theism do not deserve special coddling of their unsupported beliefs. Well, this has become long-winded. In essence I am only saying that we all benefit from an unafraid voice willing to boldly state that which others don’t find politic to opine. He bellies right up to the line of overt insult on some things, but his opinions are true, however undigestable they may be to certain parties. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/57 "2014-05-11T14:18:01Z")
As has been pointed out in every one of these threads, St\*rmfronters’ views are “honestly held”. Yes, they really do believe it. So, saying that someone’s views are “honestly held” means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/58 "2014-05-11T14:18:42Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > He bellies right up to the line of overt insult on some things, but his opinions are true, however undigestable they may be to certain parties. So you believe that it’s true that the anti-abortion movement is motivated by a desire to see women suffer? I suspect it is not possible to “debate” that kind of thinking, and therefore it needs to be confined to the Pit and not GD. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/59 "2014-05-11T14:28:18Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > And the really sad thing is that it would be so easy to post those sentiments without crossing any lines. Yep. I’ve defended **Der Trihs** before, but he’s coming off as a cartoon here. The examples he posted from **Terr** were not nearly as bad as his own post. To reach that level **Terr** would have had to say something like: \*All support of abortion springs from the desire to kill babies. \* And I’m not using hyperbole there. DT’s comment was that ridiculous. Equally ridiculous is his notion that his opinions could not be phrased in a Great Debates friendly manner. Like so: \*I believe much of the anti-abortion passion stems from the religious tradition of viewing women as lesser creatures. It’s a continuation of the historic beliefs that women should be subordinate to men. \* (…and then, ideally, insert some evidence supporting this position.) Again: assigning extreme, unnuanced (and IMO, false) motives to opposing posters is worse than just saying that abortion kills a kid. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147/60 "2014-05-11T14:38:45Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Well, this has become long-winded. In essence I am only saying that we all benefit from an unafraid voice willing to boldly state that which others don’t find politic to opine. He bellies right up to the line of overt insult on some things, but his opinions are true, however undigestable they may be to certain parties. I find the “he’s just brave enough to say what we’re all thinking!” defense to be extremely weak. He sure as hell doesn’t speak for me with the ridiculous hyperbole in the messages he was modded for, and if he is speaking for unsung masses on this board, I hope they stay unsung because it’s noise we don’t need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chance-where-is-that-list-of-things-im-supposed-to-remain-silent-on/688147.md?page=4)