# Jonathan Chance's warning of LHoD **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [July 22, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585 "2016-07-22T13:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/1 "2016-07-22T13:01:32Z")
I have an issue with this warning here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19497425&postcount=1279](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19497425&postcount=1279) Adding context in brackets, and then mentioning it, is normally perfectly acceptable when quoting material elsewhere. Otherwise, a reader would have no idea what **SA** was referring to. The original quote was: > [@](#): > > But my opinion is that it’s just **that** , a persona, that he utilizes because it pays off for him. (bolding added, hopefully that’s OK) What does the second “that” refer to? Well, in the context of the conversation, it refers to: > [@](#): > > [Trump being an egotistical, self-aggrandizing narcissist] The alternative would be, in order for **LHoD** to keep the casual thread follower informed, to have **SA** ’s quote, followed with, “where you’re referring to Trump being an egotistical, self-aggrandizing narcissist”, which would be much less clear to the casual reader. We’re allowed to use ellipses in quotes, as long as it doesn’t change the meaning. Brackets are typically allowed as well, in other places, and **LHoD** wasn’t trying to change the meaning either, just keeping it clear what **SA** was referring to, without requiring all readers to track back the entire conversation. I really don’t see this as warnable. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/2 "2016-07-22T13:06:30Z")
Hey, I was just coming here to start this thread! Agreed. Jonathan Chance is categorically wrong to warn LHoD. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/3 "2016-07-22T13:09:11Z")
I don’t know whether it’s technically warnable, as that depends on SDMB rules. But FWIW, I don’t think LHOD did anything wrong or misleading in that post. He used brackets, made clear that he was adding the bracketed text, and the text in those brackets was accurate (in that it was in the quote that SA was responding to). Again, if there’s well-established precedent that this is against the rules, then that’s warnable by definition. But if there’s some ambiguity here, I don’t think this should be warned, as it didn’t violate the spirit of the rule at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/4 "2016-07-22T13:17:17Z")
He didn’t alter anything, any more than journalists using brackets to explain a reference that isn’t self-evident in the quote is altering a quote. This is a bad warning – what **LHOD** did was purely to make it clear what the quote actually meant. If the rule is that nothing inside a quote box can ever be changed, then it’s both poorly applied (since I see “bolding added”, or similar, all the time) and a bad rule. The intent of the rule is obviously to prevent people from misattributing statements to other posters, and this didn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/5 "2016-07-22T13:23:13Z")
[From the FAQs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697048&postcount=11) > [@C K Dexter Haven](#): > > Falsely attributing a quote to another user, or **modifying another’s post in order to cast him/her in a bad light** , even if meant in jest, is grounds for revocation of your posting privileges. > > This does not apply to parodies to which no name is attached. > > Text inside [QUOTE] tags is sacrosanct. Normal editorial rules apply: that is, you may indicate omitted portions of a quote by the use of ellipses “…” and **you may add text to clarify a word using square brackets (e.g., “her [the sister’s] friend”)**, but you may not add editorial comments or edit a quote so as to change the substantive meaning; nor may you substitute text such as “some blather” or “more nonsense” inside the [QUOTE] tags. > > Be aware that for legal reasons, the Moderators do not edit posts, except to rectify coding errors or remove unacceptable links - changes that do not require editorial judgment on our part. We will delete offensive posts on request if we feel deletion is warranted, or delete the thread if removal of the offending post would render the thread meaningless. Bolding mine. That seems pretty clear on the question of whether [clarification] is permitted. Full disclosure: in order to get the boards to overlook Dex’s open [QUOTE] tags, I had to insert a space after the first bracket in each case. I humbly await judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/6 "2016-07-22T13:23:45Z")
This looks like a zero-tolerance policy causing silly results when applied. Uncalled-for warning. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/7 "2016-07-22T13:30:30Z")
Based on the rules quote (thanks **Stanislaus**!), it seems clear that this wasn’t even the proper application of a rule at all. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/8 "2016-07-22T13:31:09Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > [From the FAQs](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697048&postcount=11) > > Bolding mine. That seems pretty clear on the question of whether [clarification] is permitted. I agree - that seems to settle it. I would be _very_ surprised if this warning is not reversed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/9 "2016-07-22T13:33:54Z")
Here’s the thing. Did **SA** use those exact words in an early post? No, it was another poster who used those words and that **LHoD** then inserted into **SA’s** post. If that was done by accident, then OK. But on purpose, I’d say that’s a violation of the rules. I’m sure **LHoD** knows that particular rule is enforced strictly. The inserted words were more than “clarification”-- they were editorializing. Whether it should have been a warning or a mod note is debatably. But it looks like a rule violation to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/10 "2016-07-22T13:39:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here’s the thing. Did **SA** use those exact words in an early post? No, it was another poster who used those words and that **LHoD** then inserted into **SA’s** post. If that was done by accident, then OK. But on purpose, I’d say that’s a violation of the rules. I’m sure **LHoD** knows that particular rule is enforced strictly. The inserted words were more than “clarification”-- they were editorializing. I disagree. SA was responding to a poster who noted that Trump was an “egotistical, self-aggrandizing narcissist”, and SA responded that “most of that is just an act”. In context, it’s very clear that when SA wrote “that” he was referring to the prior poster’s “egotistical, self-aggrandizing narcissist”, but that wasn’t obvious to someone who didn’t see the prior poster’s words. So it was a legitimate clarification of SA’s words. The rules as written don’t make the distinction you make, and there doesn’t seem to be any rational basis for it. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/11 "2016-07-22T13:46:50Z")
The inserted words were the antecedent to Starving Artist’s that. I don’t see how that’s editorializing. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/12 "2016-07-22T13:47:49Z")
It’s explicit and transparent that the part in square brackets in not part of the quote, and in any case square brackets are standard notation for inserting something within a quote that is not claimed to be part of a quote to clarify an out-of-context reference in the quote. The content of the brackets is an accurate and non-pejorative statement of what “that” in the quote refers to. I completely fail to understand what the warning is for. By any conventional standards outside of SDMB, the quote was NOT altered in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/13 "2016-07-22T13:55:37Z")
Honestly, MOST the mods get this wrong. Ed has already posted regarding this. > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > Quoting: do not alter words within quote tags beyond fair usage standards > > Do not change quotes of other posters or off-board citations beyond fair usage standards. If you delete material, use either ellipses or descriptive tags (e.g., \, [material deleted], etc.) to indicate you’ve done so. To add non-editorial explanatory material, use square brackets, which means things like [sic] or replacing a pronoun to make a partial quote clearer. If you add formatting for emphasis, please indicate you’ve done so, either in square brackets within the quote or immediately after the quote. Quote tags are for actual quotes only - don’t use them to paraphrase another’s argument or make a joke. This would be a correct usage according to what Ed has defined above. > [@](#): > > She [the sister] said it was hot in Dallas that weekend. This probably would not. > [@](#): > > She [the worthless, fat, welfare queen sister] said it was hot in Dallas that weekend. That said, I’m not sure LHoD’s usage was within the rule, although he made an attempt to fit it there. Was he \*clarifying or adding \*an editorial comment? One would fit, the other would not. Although that appears as a sticky in the Pit, it’s pretty clear Ed is setting a board standard when he posted that. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/14 "2016-07-22T13:57:28Z")
**Left Hand** breaking a rule? Inconceivable! Without even examining the details I knew Chance was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/15 "2016-07-22T14:02:13Z")
Perhaps “[Trump’s public persona]” would have been a better choice to use. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/16 "2016-07-22T14:04:07Z")
The proper way to do what LHoD need to do would be to simply quote both posts. He should not have inserted wording from one poster into another person’s post: > [@Superdude](#): > > Part of me wants to believe that. But he’s such an egotistical, self-aggrandizing narcissist that I can’t see him being altruistic, even for his family. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > My opinion is that most of that is just an act. How difficult is that? Just use the multi-quote function. IMHO a mod note would have been more appropriate than a warning (looks like an honest mistake), but that’s another debate. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/17 "2016-07-22T14:04:23Z")
Wouldn’t a simple multiquote avoid any need to tinker with the text? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/18 "2016-07-22T14:08:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps “[Trump’s public persona]” would have been a better choice to use. Perhaps, although that changes the actual original quote that **SA** was referring to. The original bracket by **LHoD** left the original wording untouched. However, even if you’re right stylistically, it would seem to warrant a mod note more than a warning. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > The proper way to do what LHoD need to do would be to simply quote both posts. He should not have inserted wording from one poster into another person’s post: > > How difficult is that? Just use the multi-quote function. Not difficult at all! I use it in this very post. However, the other method seems to be explicitly allowed in the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/19 "2016-07-22T14:08:59Z")
Wow. I am gobsmacked. I was genuinely trying to follow the rule here; there’s nothing unclear about what I did; I explained that it was an attempt at clarification; I was not editorializing. While there are other pathways to doing it, I really don’t see this as outside the rules, given the rules about how quotes may be altered (i.e., with non-editorializing brackets). ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585/20 "2016-07-22T14:09:50Z")
I’m going to kick this around the loop. It might be a bit as I have a busy work day, though. My point of view was the LHoD was changing the quote to make it appear that SA was agreeing with the negative characterization of Trump. But I’m willing to see what the others say. In other words, I’ll get back to you. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-chances-warning-of-lhod/760585.md?page=2)