# Jonathan Pollard, Again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528 "2010-09-21T13:12:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/1 "2010-09-21T13:12:43Z")
[The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/world/middleeast/21israel.html?_r=2&ref=world) is reporting that the Israelis are informally asking the US to release the spy Jonathan Pollard. The idea is that such a release would reward the Netanyahu government for the heat they would take for extending the freeze of the settlements. Before I go off on a rant here, you got to admire the cultural gap here. The Israelis really think they can get Pollard out. They think they got a chance. They think it is on the table. No American president will ever release him. Argue all you want. It will not happen. Ever. How can educated Israelis not understand that? All the more so since Netanyahu raided the issue with Bill Clinton in '98. The release then would reward the Israelis for the peace deal the Palestinians foolishly turned down. Supposedly Clinton threw is papers in the air when the issue was mentioned. Listen meatheads, Pollard will die in prison. God willing he will have a long, long life in maximum security. I hope he lives a hundred years. He will never have to select his own breakfast ever again. Got it? Good. Now shut up about it. Next, we do not have to reward you for nothing. Making peace is a risk, but the reward is stop having to go to so many funerals. Peace is the freakin’ reward! What, you think peace is some sort of imposition on you? Heck, if I were president the Israeli ambassador would be examining the quotations on my carpet as I use my belt on him. Even raising the issue is a grievous miscalculation and an imposition on a matter of solely American concern. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/2 "2010-09-21T14:01:32Z")
Yeah, there is a cultural gap here. Israelis never leave a man behind. You think he should die in prison? Fine, although that’s pretty draconian, especially compared to other spies the U.S. government has imprisoned. But we’re not going to stop asking. We sent him, and we’re responsible for him, no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/3 "2010-09-21T14:22:24Z")
I’m also so curious why you feel so vehemently (with S&M overtones, no less!) about something that happened so long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/4 "2010-09-21T14:29:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, there is a cultural gap here. Israelis never leave a man behind. > > You think he should die in prison? Fine, although that’s pretty draconian, especially compared to other spies the U.S. government has imprisoned. But we’re not going to stop asking. We sent him, and we’re responsible for him, no matter what. No touch of embarrassment for giving a guy money to betray his country? (even when that country is your closest “friend” in a hostile word?) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/5 "2010-09-21T14:32:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m also so curious why you feel so vehemently (with S&M overtones, no less!) about something that happened so long ago. Because he’s a fucking traitor. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/6 "2010-09-21T14:34:45Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > No touch of embarrassment for giving a guy money to betray his country? (even when that country is your closest “friend” in a hostile word?) Maybe that’s another “cultural gap” :rolleyes: Like… I dunno… Israelis don’t give a f\*\*k. But it’s nice of you think you’re best friends. How delusional one has to be to maintain “our friend and ally” mantra and on top of that, be offended when they spy on you. Repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/7 "2010-09-21T14:37:27Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > Yeah, there is a cultural gap here. Israelis never leave a man behind. > > > > You think he should die in prison? Fine, although that’s pretty draconian, especially compared to other spies the U.S. government has imprisoned. But we’re not going to stop asking. We sent him, and we’re responsible for him, no matter what. > > No touch of embarrassment for giving a guy money to betray his country? (even when that country is your closest “friend” in a hostile word?) I \*am \*embarrassed about it. I think the whole thing was a stupid, irresponsible mistake, and it’s not something a country should do to its ally. If it means anything, I apologize. However, that doesn’t change the responsibility the State of Israel has toward Pollard. Just because we fucked up, that doesn’t mean we can hand our people out to dry - traitors or not. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/8 "2010-09-21T14:42:39Z")
I mean, seriously - do you really think my government WANTS to keep on bringing the subject up? Don’t you think they’d prefer everyone just forget the whole thing happened? But they can’t. Responsibility’s a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/9 "2010-09-21T14:45:36Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > > [@Procrustus](#): > > > > No touch of embarrassment for giving a guy money to betray his country? (even when that country is your closest “friend” in a hostile word?) > > Maybe that’s another “cultural gap” :rolleyes: > > Like… I dunno… Israelis don’t give a f\*\*k. But it’s nice of you think you’re best friends. > > How delusional one has to be to maintain “our friend and ally” mantra and on top of that, be offended when they spy on you. Repeatedly. I’d be horrified if the US didn’t on occasion recruit spies in Israel (and in every other ME country of potential significance). I’d question whether the US spymasters were really doing their jobs properly. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/10 "2010-09-21T14:46:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > However, that doesn’t change the responsibility the State of Israel has toward Pollard. Just because we fucked up, that doesn’t mean we can hand our people out to dry - traitors or not. What do you mean “our people?” The guy was only and American citizen right up until the time he decided it was convenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. Could you mean that he was paid for by the Israeli government, and that makes him one of your people? Does the fact that the United States taxpayer was subsidizing the Israeli national security apparatus to the tune of billions per year change that? You know, because if it was US money that was actually going to pay Pollard, then I think that kind of makes him ours once again. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/11 "2010-09-21T14:50:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > > [@Alessan](#): > > > > However, that doesn’t change the responsibility the State of Israel has toward Pollard. Just because we fucked up, that doesn’t mean we can hand our people out to dry - traitors or not. > > What do you mean “our people?” The guy was only and American citizen right up until the time he decided it was convenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. He was working for us, and therefore we are responsible for him. Plus, our perception is that he acted out of ideological, rather than mercenary motives. He made a sacrifice for us, no matter how misguided and wrongheaded the whole affair was. We can’t ignore that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/12 "2010-09-21T14:55:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He was working for us, and therefore we are responsible for him. Plus, our perception is that he acted out of ideological, rather than mercenary motives. > > He made a sacrifice for us, no matter how misguided and wrongheaded the whole affair was. We can’t ignore that. You know that he tried to pass along classified information to other countries, too, right? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/13 "2010-09-21T15:03:54Z")
I don’t get the outrage. Every country spies on every other, and most certainly the US spies on Israel. Indeed, as I said, I’d be horrified if they didn’t. For example: [Yosef Amit - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosef_Amit) > **[Spy Games](https://newrepublic.com/article/63992/spy-games)** > > Surprise! The United States spies on Israel more than Israel spies on the United States.In George Tenet's new book, At the Center of the Storm, the former CIA director claims that, when the Israeli government sought the release of jailed Israeli spy... That’s simply the way of it. It seems that only the US makes a major parade about it, when spies are caught - Israel simply quietly jails them, without the hoo and ha. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/14 "2010-09-21T15:14:55Z")
Pollard is not an Israeli, he’s an American traitor. If Israel doesn’t understand how America feels about traitors then there really is a cultural gap. Leaving aside the emotional issues and cutting right through to cynical politics, I think Israel probably needs to understand that it would be absolutely politically impossible for any US President to let someone like Pollard out of prison. The public would see that as a borderline treasonous act in itself (and the right is already looking for any excuse to label Obama as a enemy of the state as it is). Israel can feel responsible all it wants, but it’s deluded if it thinks the release of Pollard will ever be a realistic possibility. His defenders call his sentence excessive, but I can tell you that an awfully large part of the American public sees a life sentence for this kind of thing as a clemency. If he’d been selling out to anyone but Israel, the public would want him swinging from a tree. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/15 "2010-09-21T15:17:46Z")
Part of the outrageousness of the request is the apparent perfidy of taking literally billions of dollars in US taxpayer money (which I do not necessarily oppose) while recruiting Americans to hand over secrets, and then say (or at least imply) that the US is acting unreasonably in not releasing a spy back to his sponsor country. I understand and acknowledge that virtually all countries out there are spying on the US. We do not send billions in cash to countries like France, Taiwan, China, or elsewhere. Also, I do not believe that Russia has made pleas that if we could only release Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames, then we might see progress on foreign policy issues of mutual interest; nor do I believe that Russia complains that the US is being unfair to those spies in leaving them to rot in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/16 "2010-09-21T15:17:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You know that he tried to pass along classified information to other countries, too, right? Cite? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Leaving aside the emotional issues and cutting right through to cynical politics, I think Israel probably needs to understand that it would be absolutely politically impossible for any US President to let someone like Pollard out of prison. It would also be absolutely politically impossible for any Israeli Prime Minister to stop asking. So I guess the dance has to continue, whether anyone likes it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/17 "2010-09-21T15:22:35Z")
Nvm ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/18 "2010-09-21T15:22:41Z")
The cultural issue is very central to all this. Obviously neither side really understands the other. Israelis are foreign to Americans, different from the many loyal American Jews we all know. But in addition, why would Israel need any sort of sweetener to a peace deal? They are willing to make peace only if someone grants them a wish. This implies they simply do not want a peace deal. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/19 "2010-09-21T15:29:08Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > The cultural issue is very central to all this. Obviously neither side really understands the other. Israelis are foreign to Americans, different from the many loyal American Jews we all know. > > But in addition, why would Israel need any sort of sweetener to a peace deal? They are willing to make peace only if someone grants them a wish. This implies they simply do not want a peace deal. The article claims N. wants this release in order to sell the peace deal to his own right-wing hard-liners, who otherwise would not want a peace deal on its own merits. In short, it is not being sold as something “Israel” wants or needs in exchange for peace, but something he needs for internal political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528/20 "2010-09-21T15:29:20Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Listen meatheads, Pollard will die in prison. Is this correct? His [Federal Bureau of Prisons page](http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFinderServlet?Transaction=NameSearch&needingMoreList=false&FirstName=Jonathan&Middle=Jay&LastName=Pollard&Race=U&Sex=U&Age=&x=75&y=13) lists his projected release date at 2015, and according to his Wikipedia page, a law in place at the time of his sentencing mandates release after 30 years, provided he behaves himself is prison. Is that still the case, or have i missed something? The Wiki page also says he has never applied for parole, despite being eligible to do so after 8 years. Odd. > [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, there is a cultural gap here. Israelis never leave a man behind. Well, except for the period of more than a decade when they continued to strenuously insist that he was not spying for them at all, but was part of an unauthorized rogue operation. And only admitted it after Pollard actually started an action in the Israeli High Court. > [@Alessan](#): > > Plus, our perception is that he acted out of ideological, rather than mercenary motives. Just curious: apart from the $10,000 cash up front and the $1,500 a month he got from the Israelis, exactly how much money would he have to receive in order to be considered mercenary, rather than ideological? > [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > But in addition, why would Israel need any sort of sweetener to a peace deal? They are willing to make peace only if someone grants them a wish. This implies they simply do not want a peace deal. For me, this was the most offensive part of the whole story. Either the moratorium on settlement construction is the right thing to do, or it isn’t. If it’s the right thing to do, then just fucking do it, without the conditions; and if it’s not the right thing to do, then don’t promise to do it just to get a traitor out of prison. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-pollard-again/554528.md?page=2)