# Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, the novel: Does it ever get interesting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526 "2015-07-07T23:41:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/61 "2015-07-09T08:23:08Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > (Some of) you have convinced me. I just bought it. 🙂 I hope you enjoy it. It’s a magnificent book imo. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/62 "2015-07-09T10:21:06Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > (Some of) you have convinced me. I just bought it. 🙂 If you got the hardback, don’t read it lying on your back, as it might fall and cause you a black eye. Personal experience? Me? It is to laugh! ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/63 "2015-07-09T11:30:21Z")
I watched the first episode of the TV show and thought “this is pretty dull, but seems like the kind of thing that would read better than it plays visually.” Two weeks later, I’ve been disabused of that notion. Just can’t barely force myself to read more than a few paragraphs at a time and just finally made it through the talking statues (so: about 20 minutes into the first episode). So dull. ---
**Author:** ![LVBoPeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/858c86/32.png) [@LVBoPeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LVBoPeep)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/64 "2015-07-09T13:01:22Z")
I just finished it last night and loved it. The first part was a little slow to pick up but once Mr. Norrell does his particular act of magic for the Prime Minister’s wife, it picks up and becomes faster paced. I thought the footnotes and back story on the Raven King were lots of fun as was Strange’s experiences with Wellington. The story of Stephen Black was especially well done, in my opinion. The way he falls in to the fairy’s enchantment was so accidental and real to me. And I thought the ending was perfect. I had two books going on at the same time- _A Thousand Splendid Suns_ which is quite dark and _Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell_ was a relief to that darkness without being silly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/65 "2015-07-09T13:12:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Yes and no. Even fantasy has to have rules, or else it will lack a sense of internal consistency. > > John Campbell (apocryphally?) claimed that no one could write a science fiction mystery story, because the hero would just build an invention that solved the mystery. We know better today: we have many science fiction mysteries, and they work because “just building an invention that solved the mystery” is forbidden. It’s taboo. Anybody who tried it would be pilloried in the reviews. > > Same with fantasy. Stories where the hero suddenly develops a new “power” or prays real hard to the gods, or plucks some new magic spell out of his butt – aren’t popular. (Ugh. Yes, people do write them. Ugh twice.) > > Even fantasy fiction has to have enough “implicit reality” to allow the reader to suspend disbelief. > > “A Wizard of Earthsea” succeeds in this. “The Magic May Return” succeeds at this. “Lord of the Rings” largely succeeds at this. > > But for many of us, Strange and Norrell did not. > > I think you may be making the mistake of arguing against people’s tastes and preferences, something which is classically viewed as futile. Uh, aren’t both sides of this debate doing that? One side likes it and another side doesn’t. I think, while it is of course futile to argue who is right or wrong in a matter of taste, it is interesting to see why one side likes it and the other doesn’t. To my mind, there are three reasons people commonly give for not liking it: (1) Don’t like the language. Find it pretentious. (2) Plot moves too slowly. Dull. (3) Breaks the rules of fantasy/alternative history. Can’t suspend disbelief. In contrast, people who like the book find the use of language part of its charm, are enjoying the ride too much to complain about the pace, and don’t care that it breaks the rules of fantasy/alternative history because, to them, it isn’t a “genre” novel at all, but basically a comedy of manners with a fantasy setting. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/66 "2015-07-09T13:32:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I think you may be making the mistake of arguing against people’s tastes and preferences, something which is classically viewed as futile. To my mind it’s not an argument about tastes, it’s an argument about the nature and purpose of the work, and about what is psychologically plausible or not. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/67 "2015-07-09T16:49:47Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I’m to the point where it is first proposed that Strange and Norrell meet. If the previous oh-so-many pages are a guide, this will only be the first of many such proposals, and I’m ready to give up. At first Clarke’s smack-on impression of _Harry Potter_ as re-imagined by Trollope or Austin was amusing. I had hoped, though, for pacing that was a little less Regency or Victorian; parody should be shorter than the original. > > Should I give up now, assuming that the next several-hundred pages will continue to slog from one mildly-interesting tit-bit to another until it just runs out of steam? I would have cast it aside like a soiled glove a week ago (I’m a slow reader) had you people not spoken so glowingly of it. I haven’t read the whole thread, but I know I’m in the minority of really not liking this book. If you don’t like it by now, put it away and never look back. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/68 "2015-07-09T17:55:33Z")
While I can see the objections of the “alternate history” crowd, I’ve always found that learning the politics and intrigues of an imaginary reality was tedious. And, particularly in a fantasy where you’re not extrapolating from one deviation from recorded history, it’s also quite pointless. So if an author wants to postulate that some enormously unlikely concatenation of events results in pretty much the same cast of characters and geopolitical layout occurring in the alternate reality at the time the story starts, I’m actually OK with that. I’d rather be told “Napoleon vs. England” and be instantly up to speed with the geopolitical situation than have to suffer through pages of alternate reality CSPAN. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/69 "2015-07-09T20:53:11Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > If you got the hardback, don’t read it lying on your back, as it might fall and cause you a black eye. . . . Thank God for ebook readers! > [@Malthus](#): > > Uh, aren’t both sides of this debate doing that? One side likes it and another side doesn’t. Fair enough. > [@](#): > > I think, while it is of course futile to argue who is right or wrong in a matter of taste, it is interesting to see why one side likes it and the other doesn’t. . . . Definitely so! My reasons may not be your reasons…my reasons may in fact be absolutely and diametrically opposed to your reasons…but I do have reasons. In some differences over tastes, it isn’t really explainable. If someone doesn’t like chocolate, they don’t actually have a “reason.” It just doesn’t taste good. The fact that this applies in this case (Strange and Norrell) also is a source of some confusion. In addition to my not liking it on various specific grounds…I also just plain kinda didn’t like it. (I do adore comedies of manners in genre. Alexei Panshin’s “Villiers” novels, or Walter Jon Williams’ “Maijstral” novels are the peachiest! Anyone who does like Strange and Norrell might give these a peep. As well as anyone who doesn’t!) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/70 "2015-07-09T21:34:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I suspect the book appealed far more to period literature lovers than it did to fantasy fans. Spot on, old prune. I moderately enjoyed _Jonathan Strange_, but only for the language; I enjoy historical fiction that is written in the style of the age. Patrick O’Brian and George Macdonald Fraser also wrote that way. But O’Brian and Fraser could also tell a gripping tale; purely as a story, _Jonathan Strange_ was a failure. I finished it, but, like **Trinopus** , only out of sheer, bloody-minded stubbornness. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/71 "2015-07-10T00:21:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thank God for ebook readers! Piffle! A netbook has a built-in, stable base and can rest on your belly whether you are awake, asleep, or dead. > [@](#): > > (I do adore comedies of manners in genre. Alexei Panshin’s “Villiers” novels, or Walter Jon Williams’ “Maijstral” novels are the peachiest! Anyone who does like Strange and Norrell might give these a peep. As well as anyone who doesn’t!) There seem to be many “Maijstral” novels. Do they start to suck halfway through the second one, like a series of which I recommended the first volume above? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/72 "2015-07-10T03:37:45Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Piffle! A netbook has a built-in, stable base and can rest on your belly whether you are awake, asleep, or dead. ??? I can’t tell if you’re disagreeing with me, or agreeing. Anyway, hooray for readers of any kind, so you don’t have to hold up an immense heavy hardcover. (I, too, like to read lying on my back. Strange and Norrell was painful to read! But not as painful as it was for **Uniqueorn**! > [@](#): > > There seem to be many “Maijstral” novels. Do they start to suck halfway through the second one, like a series of which I recommended the first volume above? I believe there are three of them, and, alas, the first is the best, the second is next best, and the third is third best. I wouldn’t say that they ever suck; they’re still plenty fun all the way to the end. (It’s a little tricky, as the collection of all three books has been given a new title of its own, but it is only books one, two, and three under one cover.) WJW said that the books were a disappointment to him. They were harder to write than anything else of his – comedy is hard! – and they did not sell well. They sold so poorly, in fact, that the sales figures torpedoed another deal he was negotiating. But the books are much beloved by at least some few of his fans, and I did have the joy of telling him this in person. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/73 "2015-07-10T10:04:39Z")
Although obviously the book has an “alternate history” setting, I didn’t get any sense that it was supposed to be of that genre. Alternate history books tend to be driven by the difference in history; in this book it’s largely scene setting for the comedy of manners that forms the main plot. The history bits are relegated to the footnotes and occasional conversational snippets. It may even make more sense to say it’s not so much an alternate history setting as a fantasy setting closely based on reality. Potato, potahto, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/74 "2015-07-10T20:11:47Z")
Yes, I don’t consider JS&MN to be in the alt-hist genre, really. It’s more of a magical fantasy/Austenian novel with a historical setting, some of the details of which happen to diverge from our own timeline. But those divergences are not the point of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/75 "2015-07-11T13:29:34Z")
This is one of the books I have started several times and stalled out in the middle, unable to finish. I like the BBC series far more than the book; I just couldn’t visualize the action and characters on paper, so there’s something about the writing that doesn’t engage my brain. I even tried again after seeing the first two episodes – again, no dice. Other books/authors I am unable to finish: _Infinite Jest_ (David Foster Wallace) _Madame Bovary_ (Flaubert) Anything by Thomas Pynchon, Salman Rushdie, or Don DeLillo ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/76 "2015-07-11T17:42:43Z")
I had to read Bovary for three separate classes. Note that “had to read” /= “finished.” What a dreadfully dull book about a horrid, selfish woman! I got up to the British candy scene in Gravity’s Rainbow and figured it was all downhill from there so I quit, humming “Savoy Truffles” as I put the book away. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/77 "2017-02-10T18:03:44Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > (Some of) you have convinced me. I just bought it. 🙂 My TBR pile is a bit unwieldy. I just picked this (Strange and Norrell) up yesterday and finished it, well, technically this morning. I really liked it. I immediately started searched for the sequel. There are some short stories, and Susanna Clarke is apparently working on a something (and has been for some time). I really enjoyed it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/78 "2017-02-10T18:25:21Z")
My biggest problem with Turtledove is that he has lost any imagination he may have had. His more recent novels (last decade or so) have been exactly historical events with the ID numbers filed off and different names inserted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/79 "2017-02-10T18:47:32Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > The question of whether a gentleman would exploit the use of magic for their personal gain has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to the book’s plot. Norrell and Strange _were not randomly selected_ to be magicians. They were, _explicitly_, part of a spell the Raven King had cast to get rid of the Gentleman With the Thistledown Hair. > > They did not accidentally have personality traits that led to them not exploiting their magic - they were specifically _selected_ for the personality traits that the Raven King’s spell needed. > > There’s no need to speculate why some other magician wouldn’t have teleported London into the Marianas Trench in a fit of pique, or snatched Napoleon into prison, because _there weren’t going to be any other magicians_. The Raven King brought back magic to have two magicians do what he needed done, and then set up circumstances so those two magicians got put away where they’d be no bother after they were done. It’s possible that Norrell knew some Parlor tricks before. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526/80 "2017-02-10T20:27:58Z")
But there are other magicians that arrive after them: Part of their purpose is return magic. Also - there is one part of the ending that doesn’t make sense to me at. The death of the Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair undoes all of his works except the Darkness around Strange (and Norrell). Why? This does not compute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonathan-strange-mr-norrell-the-novel-does-it-ever-get-interesting/724526.md?page=5)