# JonBenét Ramsay murder case discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633 "2011-06-23T23:58:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/121 "2011-06-26T01:40:01Z")
…while most people are correct that the parents cannot absolutely be ruled out as suspects, **Diogenes the Cynic’s** larger point, that there is no evidence that the parents or anyone in the household is related to the murder is correct. There is no evidence of sexual abuse. The handwriting analysis I’ve seen is typically done by “internet experts”. There is no evidence that the DNA came from the factory that the underwear was produced. There is not “tons” of evidence against the Ramsey’s" because if there was someone would have provided a cite for some of it in this thread. There is clear evidence of a break in. There is clear evidence that somebody that was not a member of the Ramsey household was with Jon Benet at the time of her murder. That the parents were involved in the murder at this point in time is purely speculation not based on the available evidence. And if believe you have any evidence to counter this: please, I urge you to contact the Boulder Police Department urgently. The death of Jon Benet is an absolute tragedy which has been turned into a ridiculous circus over the years: and it continues into this thread as people continue to proclaim rumor and innuendo as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/122 "2011-06-26T02:12:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …while most people are correct that the parents cannot absolutely be ruled out as suspects, **Diogenes the Cynic’s** larger point, that there is no evidence that the parents or anyone in the household is related to the murder is correct. > > There is no evidence of sexual abuse. The handwriting analysis I’ve seen is typically done by “internet experts”. There is no evidence that the DNA came from the factory that the underwear was produced. There is not “tons” of evidence against the Ramsey’s" because if there was someone would have provided a cite for some of it in this thread. There is clear evidence of a break in. There is clear evidence that somebody that was not a member of the Ramsey household was with Jon Benet at the time of her murder. > > That the parents were involved in the murder at this point in time is purely speculation not based on the available evidence. And if believe you have any evidence to counter this: please, I urge you to contact the Boulder Police Department urgently. The death of Jon Benet is an absolute tragedy which has been turned into a ridiculous circus over the years: and it continues into this thread as people continue to proclaim rumor and innuendo as fact. Cite please for the “clear evidence” of both (or either) of a break in and that someone not a family member was present at the time of the murder. Rumor and innuendo, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/123 "2011-06-26T02:16:34Z")
Unrelated to the murder itself, but I can’t watch the show “Toddlers & Tiaras” or news stories about kid pagents, because of the Ramsey case. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/124 "2011-06-26T02:19:34Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > I think you might be mixing up your dead suspects. Bill McReynolds is the guy with a bad heart who played Santa, whose wife wrote the play based on Sylvia Lykens’ murder. Michael Helgoth is the man whose body was found near a stun gun and the baseball cap with the lettering stbc. Now that I’ve looked it up, that appears to be correct. I don’t remember where I saw that stuff long ago. But Santa Claus killing JonBenet makes a much better story, so I’m sticking to it. BTW: Who is Michael Helgoth? Did he have a connection to the Ramsey’s? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/125 "2011-06-26T02:20:39Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Cite please for the “clear evidence” of both (or either) of a break in and that someone not a family member was present at the time of the murder. > > Rumor and innuendo, indeed. …how about a cite from you first for your comment that “There are tons of evidence against them, circumstantial and otherwise.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/126 "2011-06-26T03:22:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …how about a cite from you first for your comment that “There are tons of evidence against them, circumstantial and otherwise.” Apart from the ransom note that indicated intimate knowledge of family issues, there was fiber from Patsy Ramsey’s coat on the body, on the duct tape, in the paint tray where the paintbrush garotte came from, and in the ligature. She was also wearing the same clothes from the night before when the police arrived, and had makeup on. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/127 "2011-06-26T03:23:12Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Cite please for the “clear evidence” of both (or either) of a break in and that someone not a family member was present at the time of the murder. > > Rumor and innuendo, indeed. The primary evidence for an intruder was incontrovertable foreign DNA, evdience of an intruder getting in through a broken window, the missing tape and a missing piece of the paint brush. The evidence that the Ramseys did it is fucking NOTHING. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/128 "2011-06-26T03:28:27Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Apart from the ransom note that indicated intimate knowledge of family issues There was no such evidence in the ransom note. > [@](#): > > there was fiber from Patsy Ramsey’s coat on the body, on the duct tape, in the paint tray where the paintbrush garotte came from, and in the ligature. False on all counts. There were red fibers that could have come from anywhere - like a Santa suit. Patsy’s coat wasn’t just red any way, but multicolored. There was no positive identification of the fibers a coming from Patsy’s jacket. That is false. > [@](#): > > She was also wearing the same clothes from the night before when the police arrived, and had makeup on. So what? In an urgent situation, you grab the clothes that are closest to you. Patsy probably put on makeup before the cops got there because she was vain and self conscious and was mortified to ever let anyone see her without makeup. I fail to see how any of that makes her more likely to be the killer. You’ve basically got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/129 "2011-06-26T03:47:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The primary evidence for an intruder was incontrovertable foreign DNA, evdience of an intruder getting in through a broken window, the missing tape and a missing piece of the paint brush. > > The evidence that the Ramseys did it is fucking NOTHING. We all have foreign DNA on us. That means nothing. There is no evidence of an intruder getting in through a broken window, all there is is evidence of some leaves getting in. A few missing items used in the murder have absolutely no connection to a break in. Anyone could have walked down the street and threw them in a dumpster or down a gutter. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/130 "2011-06-26T05:04:42Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Apart from the ransom note that indicated intimate knowledge of family issues, there was fiber from Patsy Ramsey’s coat on the body, on the duct tape, in the paint tray where the paintbrush garotte came from, and in the ligature. She was also wearing the same clothes from the night before when the police arrived, and had makeup on. …these aren’t cites: these are statements made by you. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/131 "2011-06-26T05:23:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …these aren’t cites: these are statements made by you. There isn’t an online database where the Boulder PD lists all their evidence. All of these things have been widely reported by dozens of media sources from interviews with Boulder law enforcement. [Here is a link](http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945) to a transcript of an interview with Patsy Ramsey where she specifically says that she put on makeup and the same clothes she was wearing the night before. See section 0018. > [@](#): > > 23 TOM HANEY: What I would like to do > 24 then is with this blue marker, can you just > 25 indicate the path that you took getting out of > 0018 > 1 bed and then the first stop you made, the first > 2 thing you did along that route. > 3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were > 4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE). > 5 TOM HANEY: Let me stop you there. > 6 The clothes that you say were thrown down, those > 7 were clothes you had worn the night before? > 8 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. > 9 TOM HANEY: Okay. Seems odd to me. > 10 PATSY RAMSEY: Early. I do this a > 11 lot. > [@](#): > > 1 TOM HANEY: – if you’re going to > 2 leave at 7? > 3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right. > 4 TOM HANEY: So you say you put your > 5 makeup on? > 6 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding.) > 7 TOM HANEY: What brands of makeup > 8 do you wear? > 9 PATSY RAMSEY: Different kinds. > 10 TOM HANEY: Do you know what it > 11 would have been at that time? > 12 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably the > 13 foundation was probably either Clinique or > 14 Chanel, my sister sells Chanel and she has > 15 samples of everything. So keeps us in samples > 16 (INAUDIBLE). Just guessing, I don’t know. > 17 TOM HANEY: What did you say this > 18 was, the– > 19 PATSY RAMSEY: Foundation. > 20 TOM HANEY: Foundation. Okay. Are > 21 there other things that you put on– > 22 PATSY RAMSEY: Blush, lipstick. I > 23 probably didn’t really do a terrific job. I > 24 mean just putting, get a little bit on and go, > 25 you know. Not statements by me, statements by Patsy Ramsey. Your turn. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/132 "2011-06-26T08:55:23Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > There isn’t an online database where the Boulder PD lists all their evidence. All of these things have been widely reported by dozens of media sources from interviews with Boulder law enforcement. > > [Here is a link](http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945) to a transcript of an interview with Patsy Ramsey where she specifically says that she put on makeup and the same clothes she was wearing the night before. See section 0018. > > Not statements by me, statements by Patsy Ramsey. > > Your turn. …so you’ve provided a cite that says that Patsy Ramsey said she put on makeup and the same clothes she was wearing the night before. Whoop-de-shit! This cite, of course, does not back up your assertions that: -The ransom note that indicated intimate knowledge of family issues -There was fiber from Patsy Ramsey’s coat on the body -There was fiber from Patsy Ramsey coat on the duct tape -There was fiber from Patsy Ramsey coat in the paint tray where the paintbrush garotte came from -There was fiber from Patsy Ramsey coat in the ligature. You also have stated that “There are tons of evidence against them, circumstantial and otherwise.” You haven’t even come close to proving that assertion. I’m not going to go around and dig around to prove your assertions: especially as we are in IMHO and not Great Debates. I, of course, am not making allegations that somebody is guilty of murdering their daughter on a public forum based on an interview where somebody says they wore the same clothes as the night before. “All of these things have been widely reported by dozens of media sources from interviews with Boulder law enforcement.” I too, have seen a number of different stories in the media, and I came to a different conclusion to you. Which particular media item do you have in mind that you consider proves guilt? As I said: rumour and innuendo. ---
**Author:** ![beartato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@beartato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beartato)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/133 "2011-06-26T09:28:05Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Unrelated to the murder itself, but I can’t watch the show “Toddlers & Tiaras” or news stories about kid pagents, because of the Ramsey case. But otherwise, if this had never happened, you would watch pageant shows and read articles? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/134 "2011-06-26T13:24:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Now that I’ve looked it up, that appears to be correct. I don’t remember where I saw that stuff long ago. But Santa Claus killing JonBenet makes a much better story, so I’m sticking to it. > > BTW: Who is Michael Helgoth? Did he have a connection to the Ramsey’s? Not that I can find. Basically, he’s on the radar because a friend of his put him forward as a suspect. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There was no such evidence in the ransom note. > > False on all counts. There were red fibers that could have come from anywhere - like a Santa suit. Patsy’s coat wasn’t just red any way, but multicolored. There was no positive identification of the fibers a coming from Patsy’s jacket. That is false. > > So what? In an urgent situation, you grab the clothes that are closest to you. Patsy probably put on makeup before the cops got there because she was vain and self conscious and was mortified to ever let anyone see her without makeup. I fail to see how any of that makes her more likely to be the killer. You’ve basically got nothing. But Patsy didn’t get dressed for an urgent situation. Her story was that she got dressed and put on her make-up prior to discovering the note and knowing that JonBenet was missing. And not the make-up, but Patsy putting on yesterday’s clothes always struck me as sort of an odd note. She wasn’t showering; she was preparing to travel; so it would have seemed fairly normal if she grabbed yesterdays jeans or sweats to wear on the private plane, but yesterday’s velvet pants and sweater? Odd. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/135 "2011-06-26T15:14:26Z")
Didn’t the ransom note demand the exact amount of Ramsey’s Christmas bonus? Didn’t it say something about his “southern charm”? Wasn’t it written on the family’s stationery? Didn’t it include insane things like telling him to be well rested and describing the kidnapping group in ridiculous cartoon-like detail? In other words, the note was nothing like a real kidnapper/intruder would actually write. You would write the note before hand, not sit down inside the home and hand write four pages of mostly drivel. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/136 "2011-06-26T15:53:35Z")
How do you know what a crazy person would do? The fact that it was written on a notepad from inside the house means nothing. Of course the killer was in the house. Do you see how weak and pathetic these arguments are against the Ramseys? She put on makeup? Seriously, that’s supposed to be proof that she’s a killer. Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/137 "2011-06-26T15:59:30Z")
Yeah right. You are the champion of logic. You still can’t grasp that finding unknown DNA doesn’t totally clear family members. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/138 "2011-06-26T16:20:24Z")
[Here is a synopsis](http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon101799.htm) from the Denver Post which touches most of the evidence, or lack of evidence, people have commented on here: the sweater fibers on the tape and garrote, the note (handwriting analysis or junk science?) the foreign DNA, the evidence for and against a break in. It’s from 1999, so it’s dated, but still interesting, IMO. I don’t know why this case is so much more intriguing than the Casey Anthony circus, but it is. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/139 "2011-06-26T16:39:19Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Yeah right. You are the champion of logic. You still can’t grasp that finding unknown DNA doesn’t totally clear family members. This is fatuous logic. The unknown DNA unquestionably belonged to the killer, and the killer wasn’t one of the ramseys. All that leaves you with is baseless, loony toons theories about the Ramseys letting somebody else do it. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/140 "2011-06-26T16:41:49Z")
In the first few years following the murder, I was inclined to believe that the parents did it. I recently read the Ramseys’ book, and came away appalled at how brutally those poor people were treated by the police (who were desparate to cover their incompetence by pinning it on anyone they could) and the absolutely shameless media. There were so many misconceptions that I had picked up as a casual observer of the media coverage. One example: I had the impression that the Ramseys were independently wealthy, worth tens of millions. I’ve heard accusers claim that Ramsey used his “vast fortune” to buy off authorities and spin the media coverage. Not theoretically implausible, if he were that rich. But he wasn’t. The company he was CEO of was worth a billion dollars; accusers twisted this into “he’s a billionaire”.\* Bullshit, grounded in ignorance of the facts. The Ramseys were comfortably upper-middle class, but even that changed after John Ramsey left the company (due in part to the media circus around him). Also, I admit to finding those child beauty pageants weird, and had formed some unfavorable feelings towards Patsy Ramsey, thinking that she had been re-living her days as a beauty queen by forcing Jon Benet to spend all her free time on such creepy doings. In fact, Jon Benet took part in lots of other sports and activities. The media found it a better story to cobble together the false impression that her mother had this unhealthy obsession, and that it somehow led to a murderous rage. In the Ramsey murder case, armchair psychologists just seemed to make stuff up as if they were experts (based on the lurid lies and half-truths trumpeted in the tabloids) and declare that the parents HAD to be guilty. > [@etv78](#): > > I’ve also heard it argued that ONLY a parent/family member could kill someone so brutally. A good example of what I just described. There are a bazillion brutal murder cases (committed by people not related to the victims) that make this statement utterly absurd. - I am reminded of the Simpsons episode where the children learn that Principal Skinner is 41 years old, and makes $25,000 a year. “Wow!”, they declare. “He’s a \*millionaire!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633.md?page=8)