# JonBenét Ramsay murder case discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 23, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633 "2011-06-23T23:58:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/161 "2011-06-26T22:55:54Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Since you won’t listen to logic and reason, there’s no point even bothering to address your ridiculous statements again. But geez, you are insufferable. :rolleyes: I don’t see any logic or reason to support the assertion that the parents _were_ involved. I think a visceral feeling that the parents _must_ have been culpable were natural at the time, since we were inundated with media images of her pageant photos. Most people will (naturally, I think) find this pastime as creepy as hell. And yet, there’s this whole thriving subculture dedicated to it, and it seems that the number of pageant kiddies that are raped and murdered by (or with the consent of) their parents is insignificant. If you can get past the initial squick (and subsequent exposure to documentaries about child pageants should at least persuade you that whatever their faults are, somehow the parents have a completely normalized view of the behaviour of making their little girls up in the same fashion as a Miss America contestant, and aren’t doing it for anybody’s sexual titillation) then there really isn’t much left. We were constantly hit over the head with “The Ramsey’s Aren’t Cooperating With The Investigation!” from the likes of People magazine, and that helped to reinforce people’s suspicions - but objectively, they did cooperate. Their account of what they experienced is consistent with the evidence presented. If you are able to get past the natural WTF of “Why the hell would someone tart up a six-year-old up like that?” and then apply logic and reason to evidence, then you’re not going to conclude that they were likely guilty. If you are positive of their guilt, it’s not down to logic and reason - it’s because you’re listening to your gut. Remember - as often as not, your gut is full of shit. > [@koeeoaddi](#): > > > [@jtgain](#): > > > > And I don’t have the cite, but there was a website where an LEO went through the note line by line with criticism and concluded that it was meant to mislead and not an attempt to actually get ransom money. In other words, it was not a kidnapping gone wrong, but an attempt to cover up the murder. > > [This?](http://www.statementanalysis.com/ramseynote/) My god, it’s [full of woo!](http://www.skepdic.com/statementanalysis.html) ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/162 "2011-06-26T23:36:26Z")
O.K. I posted earlier in this thread and decided to read up on the case. The book with the highest [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) rating was **JonBenét: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation** by Steve Thomas who was one of the leading detectives on the case. I’m not going to post a review of the book which I went through these past three days but Thomas makes a more than compelling argument that it was Patsy Ramsey who did it. You can read an account of Thomas’s theory [here](http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682497/Patsy-Ramsey#BedWettingRageTheory) dubbed the “Bed-Wetting Rage Theory”. Some of it is taken directly from pages 286 - 289 of his book. The site also chooses to include some of the whackier theories floated out there so a grain of salt is duly advised. I’m not going to parrot his stance from the book and there are a few flaws to this theory but I walk away much more knowledgeable about the case than before. Anyone else in this thread read this book or one of the others out there on the same subject? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/163 "2011-06-26T23:43:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I would do the exact same thing. Wouldn’t you? What parent wouldn’t search the house? But they didn’t do that automatically. IIRC, they didn’t search until a detective instructed them to. What I’m wondering is why didn’t the cops seal off the house and conduct the search themselves. I’ve never really understood that. If they thought it was a kidnapping, it seems nobody suspected the Ramseys were involved until the body was found and by then it was too late to preserve the scene from contamination. Because of that, the crime is unlikely to ever be solved. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/164 "2011-06-26T23:47:14Z")
Steve Thomas’ bedwetting theory suffers from a lack of any evidence. It also doesn’t explain the stranger’s DNA inside the underwear, or the garotte. It’s also fucking absurd that John would go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/165 "2011-06-26T23:57:07Z")
> [@Bad\_News\_Baboon](#): > > Women in these social circles are not “normal” to a lot of people… They are the type to get up super early to “put on their face” and do their hair. Appearance is everything so I can easily see how last nights outfit is being casual to them. > I live in an area where there are a lot of women in her age/generation that do this. I can go to a store at 9 and see women perfectly put together. > It’s something my generation has seemingly eased up on (I’m 40). > Out of everything, this is to me, the least questionable. > > I would like to think if this happened to my daughter, even after the note, I would search every inch of my house just in case. I can’t say, however, that I would have prior to this case. Putting make-on for everything? Totally normal for a lot of women, in those social circles and elsewhere. Never an issue for me. The clothes were. Those women you see at the grocery store who are perfectly put together are not wearing last night’s clothes which they picked up off of their bathtub that morning. Last night’s clothes are now dirty, no longer crisp and fresh, and if the outfit consisted of velvet pants and a holiday sweater, not appropriate for running errands. Well-off women for whom “appearance is everything” who are aiming for a casual look do not just wear wrinkled evening clothes; they wear super-cute and flattering casual clothes. So that’s one of the little things that made me suspicious of the parents (before the DNA was discovered). Patsy’s outfit was the outfit of a woman who dressed in a panic and a hurry, grabbing last night’s outfit to throw on, but her story was that she rose and dressed before she knew anything was wrong at her house. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/166 "2011-06-27T00:06:56Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Putting make-on for everything? Totally normal for a lot of women, in those social circles and elsewhere. Never an issue for me. > > The clothes were. Those women you see at the grocery store who are perfectly put together are not wearing last night’s clothes which they picked up off of their bathtub that morning. Last night’s clothes are now dirty, no longer crisp and fresh, and if the outfit consisted of velvet pants and a holiday sweater, not appropriate for running errands. Well-off women for whom “appearance is everything” who are aiming for a casual look do not just wear wrinkled evening clothes; they wear super-cute and flattering casual clothes. > > So that’s one of the little things that made me suspicious of the parents (before the DNA was discovered). Patsy’s outfit was the outfit of a woman who dressed in a panic and a hurry, grabbing last night’s outfit to throw on, but her story was that she rose and dressed before she knew anything was wrong at her house. One theory which I believe is that she had never gotten out of those clothes from the night before. Let’s face it moving a body, creating the ransom note, etc. would have taken a lot of time. As for why John Ramsey would have gone along with, simple, as embarassing as this entire spectacle has been, it’s still a lot less embarassing and business compromising than for it to be known that his wife killed their daughter. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/167 "2011-06-27T00:12:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Being innocent has nothing to do with it. If you have any brains, you lawyer up immediately. The cops will always regard you as a suspect from the word go (as thy probably should). Really? Is that what John Walsh and his wife did? Lawyer up immediately? ---
**Author:** ![minlokwat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minlokwat/32/2844_2.png) [@minlokwat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minlokwat)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/168 "2011-06-27T00:14:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Steve Thomas’ bedwetting theory suffers from a lack of any evidence. It also doesn’t explain the stranger’s DNA inside the underwear, or the garotte. I don’t know if I’d be that quick to dismiss it. You don’t seem particularly open-minded on this subject so there’s really no point in debating. What’s more, I’m not going to say, “Well just read the book and you’ll see” which sounds like shilling. All the same I think you’d find it compelling. > [@](#): > > It’s also fucking absurd that John would go along with it. That’s one area Thomas never really addresses. Thomas asserts that Patsy exploded in a fit of rage and accidentally killed her child with a massive blow to the skull. The fact that she, the mother who by all indications loved this child very much, could then wrap a cord around her daughter’s throat and murder or give the appearance that someone else murdered her by strangulation via garroting is beyond my comprehension. It is a bit of a stretch to think that a spouse, any spouse, would deduce that this is what happened and still stand by their mate afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/169 "2011-06-27T00:17:52Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Really? Is that what John Walsh and his wife did? Lawyer up immediately? If they didn’t, they should have. I think it was known immediately that their kid had been snatched from a public place, though. Not as much room for suspicion. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/170 "2011-06-27T00:19:42Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I don’t see any logic or reason to support the assertion that the parents _were_ involved. Seems like there were investigators privy to the case that did, though. Ignoring all the media speculation and weirdness surrounding the pageant stuff. I don’t even think that really had anything to do with the murder, frankly. Yeah, it’s a little creepy, but I don’t really see that as a reason to think the Ramseys were creepy enough to kill their kid. I’m not aware of any correlation between little girl pageants and homicidal parents. I never even brought up the pageant stuff, so I don’t know why it’s especially relevant to my questions. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/171 "2011-06-27T00:21:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If they didn’t, they should have. > > I think it was known immediately that their kid had been snatched from a public place, though. Not as much room for suspicion. Well, no that’s not true. The Walsh kid was missing for awhile before they found his head and at one point, John Walsh was a suspect. I would assume that he eventually did lawyer up, at least once the investigation turned toward him. But right off the bat? I don’t think so. ETA: IIRC, John Walsh was pretty cooperative and proactive in the investigation. I don’t remember any speculation that he was being dodgy…at least not to the extent the Ramseys were portrayed as being. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/172 "2011-06-27T00:24:17Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Seems like there were investigators privy to the case that did Not all of them, and none of them ever found a shred of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/173 "2011-06-27T00:28:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not all of them, and none of them ever found a shred of evidence. There were a lot of theories and a fucking mountain of evidence. NONE of it conclusively pointed to the killer. The fact is, the Ramseys by virtue of a sloppy investigative team contaminated the scene. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/174 "2011-06-27T00:34:44Z")
> [@minlokwat](#): > > I don’t know if I’d be that quick to dismiss it. You don’t seem particularly open-minded on this subject so there’s really no point in debating. What’s more, I’m not going to say, “Well just read the book and you’ll see” which sounds like shilling. All the same I think you’d find it compelling. I read that book long ago and while I thought it was persuasive at the time, I was a little less won over when I later read that it was Thomas’ first murder case, and even more surprised when he was successfully sued for libel and defamation by the family. Has he ever commented since? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/175 "2011-06-27T01:09:50Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Not statements by me, statements by Patsy Ramsey. > > Your turn. They don’t show up in this multi-quoting, but her responses are pretty much what mine would have been on many mornings. Putting on a bit of foundation and … was anything else mentioned there? Anyway, generally putting on a ‘face’ is part of your morning routine. It takes seconds, or at most a couple of minutes. > [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > IMHO, I don’t think you lawyer up until it looks like the investigation is focusing on just you to the utter exclusion of all other theories and suspects. If you have nothing to do with the murder, you cooperate with the investigation in order to assist the investigators in figuring out the truth. There isn’t necessarily a disconnect between lawyering-up and figuring out the truth. Distraught people say things which can make them seem culpable even when they’re not. That could delay the investigation into who really did it. > [@sugaree](#): > > So that’s one of the little things that made me suspicious of the parents (before the DNA was discovered). Patsy’s outfit was the outfit of a woman who dressed in a panic and a hurry, grabbing last night’s outfit to throw on, but her story was that she rose and dressed before she knew anything was wrong at her house. IME, those posh clothes last a bit longer than clothes you need to wash at home and iron. Hang them up in the - likely humid - bathroom - and the clothes will be like new. And I will often put on last night’s clothes to deal with early morning stuff before selecting a new outfit for the day. If she’d been wearing those clothes while killing or colluding with the killing of her daughter, however, one might expect them to be rumpled. Or expect her to have changed her clothes. Strange case, this one. Occam’s razor would day that the parents did it or were involved. Occam’s razor also says that they would have left more evidence if they had done so. There’s nothing definitive either way. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/176 "2011-06-27T01:15:12Z")
Does anybody else find it amusing that the name of the person that most people point the finger at, is [Patsy](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patsy)? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/177 "2011-06-27T01:16:01Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Does anybody else find it amusing that the name of the person that most people point the finger at, is [Patsy](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patsy)? It is a perfect irony. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/178 "2011-06-27T02:01:25Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > They don’t show up in this multi-quoting, but her responses are pretty much what mine would have been on many mornings. > > Putting on a bit of foundation and … was anything else mentioned there? Anyway, generally putting on a ‘face’ is part of your morning routine. It takes seconds, or at most a couple of minutes. > > There isn’t necessarily a disconnect between lawyering-up and figuring out the truth. Distraught people say things which can make them seem culpable even when they’re not. That could delay the investigation into who really did it. > > IME, those posh clothes last a bit longer than clothes you need to wash at home and iron. Hang them up in the - likely humid - bathroom - and the clothes will be like new. And I will often put on last night’s clothes to deal with early morning stuff before selecting a new outfit for the day. > > If she’d been wearing those clothes while killing or colluding with the killing of her daughter, however, one might expect them to be rumpled. Or expect her to have changed her clothes. > > Strange case, this one. Occam’s razor would day that the parents did it or were involved. Occam’s razor also says that they would have left more evidence if they had done so. There’s nothing definitive either way. She said she threw the clothes in the tub the night before. She also didn’t give the clothes to the Boulder PD until over a year later. Occam’s razor says the family would have left more evidence? And an intruder who opens a grate, crawls into and out of a window, takes a little girl, feeds her pineapple, kills her, makes a garotte out of things found in another area of the house, writes a four page ransom note with a pen and paper found in the house (presumably in the dark), returns the pen to the place where he found it, and only leaves behind two microscopic pieces of “touch” DNA? That’s quite a remarkable razor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/179 "2011-06-27T02:13:48Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > There were a lot of theories and a fucking mountain of evidence. NONE of it conclusively pointed to the killer. The fact is, the Ramseys by virtue of a sloppy investigative team contaminated the scene. If I find my daughter lying on the floor in the basement, I’m not going to give a shit about “contaminating the scene.” These people were victims. Show some compassion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633/180 "2011-06-27T02:15:27Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > She said she threw the clothes in the tub the night before. She also didn’t give the clothes to the Boulder PD until over a year later. > > Occam’s razor says the family would have left more evidence? And an intruder who opens a grate, crawls into and out of a window, takes a little girl, feeds her pineapple, kills her, makes a garotte out of things found in another area of the house, writes a four page ransom note with a pen and paper found in the house (presumably in the dark), returns the pen to the place where he found it, and only leaves behind two microscopic pieces of “touch” DNA? > > That’s quite a remarkable razor. DNA is DNA is DNA. There was another person in that house who wasn’t the Ramseys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jonbenet-ramsay-murder-case-discussion/586633.md?page=10)