# Joni Mitchell: why is she so bitter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 27, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471 "2010-04-27T00:11:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/41 "2010-04-27T15:30:04Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Meh. Both Sides Now has at least that many covers, according to its Wiki page. I really wanted to stay out of this thread, because being a great Dylan and Mitchell fan, I didn’t want to play the Bob vs. Joni game. But considering cover versions… Mitchell has _several_ songs that have been covered a lot (Both Sides Now, Woodstock, Circle Game, Big Yellow Taxi), but Dylan has a _shitload_ of songs that have been covered \*umpteen \*times, for example: Blowin’ In The Wind Like A Rolling Stone All Along the Watchtower Knocking On Heaven’s Door Mr. Tambourine Man The Times They Are-A Changin’ Forever Young I Shall Be Released This Wheel’s On Fire … and many more There can be now doubt that Dylan has been covered much more than Mitchell. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/42 "2010-04-27T15:41:27Z")
Both Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez are incredibly bitter toward Dylan. My guess is it’s because neither of them have 1/10 the talent he does. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/43 "2010-04-27T15:46:41Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, whether you like Bob Dylan or not, I can understand lambasting his voice. The man is awfully mumbly and needs enunciation lessons. You may be whooshing me here - but to be clear: You: Voice = vocals Me: Voice = artistic Voice ---
**Author:** ![Rrose\_Selavy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bcef8e/32.png) [@Rrose\_Selavy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rrose_Selavy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/44 "2010-04-27T15:56:51Z")
She also quite possibly has an “imaginary” disease…? > [@](#): > > “Fibres in a variety of colors protrude out of my skin like mushrooms after a rainstorm: they cannot be forensically identified as animal, vegetable or mineral. Morgellons is a slow, unpredictable killer – a terrorist disease: it will blow up one of your organs, leaving you in bed for a year.” > **[Bob Dylan is 'a plagiarist', claims Joni Mitchell](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/apr/23/bob-dylan-joni-mitchell)** > > In an outspoken interview, Joni Mitchell claims Bob Dylan's 'name and voice are fake', but remembers Jimi Hendrix fondly > **[Morgellons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgellons)** > > Morgellons (/mɔːrˈɡɛlənz/) is the informal name of a self-diagnosed, scientifically unsubstantiated skin condition in which individuals have sores that they believe contain fibrous material. Morgellons is not well understood, but the general medical consensus is that it is a form of delusional parasitosis, on the psychiatric spectrum. The sores are typically the result of compulsive scratching, and the fibers, when analysed, are consistently found to have originated from cotton and ot The cond... ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/45 "2010-04-27T15:57:19Z")
I’m picturing Joni approaching Bob with some lyrics she had written, only to have Bob scowl and snarl, “Who the fuck let _her_ in here”?!? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/46 "2010-04-27T16:34:32Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I’m picturing Joni approaching Bob with some lyrics she had written, only to have Bob scowl and snarl, “Who the fuck let _her_ in here”?!? ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WXmtB-dnkn8/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/WXmtB-dnkn8?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/47 "2010-04-27T16:37:41Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXmtB-dnkn8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXmtB-dnkn8) hehehe. No wonder the loon is pissed. He does it better than she ever did. Joni: If you are reading this, hehe!!😛 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/48 "2010-04-27T16:59:18Z")
Maybe it’s because she _still_ doesn’t know clouds… at all. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/49 "2010-04-27T17:06:59Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > [Any references to Dylan Thomas will be written off as arrant smartassery.] Wasn’t he Danny Thomas’ son? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/50 "2010-04-27T17:48:09Z")
To me, when I hear Morgellon’s, I think [Delusional parasitosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_parasitosis). ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/51 "2010-04-27T18:19:02Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > To me, when I hear Morgellon’s, I think [Delusional parasitosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_parasitosis). Nitpick (sorry, couldn’t resist): It’s “Morgellons”, not 'Morgellon’s". ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/52 "2010-04-27T18:21:09Z")
I’m not thrilled with either of them, but I have to say that I cannot listen to Bob Dylan sing. Yeah, sure he can write lyrics, but I would much rather hear a cover of his songs than him singing them, ever. I hope I never have to hear him sing again. Joni Mitchell strikes me as a tad self-absorbed (but no more than Dylan. I’ve always been :dubious: of his “mystique”). So, IMO, what we have here is 2 people at the end of their performing careers being bitchy and childish. This is news? I looked up Morgellons. WTF? 😕 :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/53 "2010-04-27T18:26:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Both Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez are incredibly bitter toward Dylan. My guess is it’s because neither of them have 1/10 the talent he does. To be fair, a case could be made that Dylan behaved like kind of an asshole towards Baez at least, who went out of her way to further his career back when she was a much bigger name than he was. IIRC, Dylan himself finally admitted he’d acted like an asshole in their relationship and apologized to Baez, in a documentary about her not long ago. And in any case, I’m not sure I buy the accusation about Baez’s “incredibly bitter” attitude towards Dylan. She’s said some negative things about him, sure, but some positive things too. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/54 "2010-04-27T18:30:13Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Nitpick (sorry, couldn’t resist): It’s “Morgellons”, not 'Morgellon’s". It’d be a relief to find nits on these folks! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/55 "2010-04-27T18:32:35Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Ask anyone about a 60s protest singer and you get Dylan. Or Phil Ochs. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/56 "2010-04-27T18:45:00Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > Or Phil Ochs. Oh, come on … Everybody between 30 and 70 has heard the name Bob Dylan or knows at least one of his songs (sadly, mostly\* Blowin’\*), but who but those really interested in the 60’s folk scene has ever heard of Ochs or one of his songs? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/57 "2010-04-27T19:19:04Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > In fact, if it wasn’t for CanCon Rules, I doubt if I would have ever really heard of her, because I seriously doubt that anyone would have given her any radio airplay in Canada otherwise. Of course, the fact that she was chalking up so much (illigitimate) airplay (which was only because she was Canadian, and for no other real reason) didn’t go unnoticed although those elsewhere didn’t realize that it was only because it was against the law here _not_ to play her (and other Canadian artists, of which there were only so many at the time). Just a point to correct here: it is perfectly legal to not play Joni Mitchell. It is also perfectly legal to not play Neil Young, Loverboy, and Rush. What is illegal (in the sense that the CRTC will enforce the matter, not the police) is not playing the required amount of Cancon–which stands at 35%, last time I checked. That could be made up of the above artists, but it need not be–no artist is mandated to be played. As for whether Joni Mitchell was getting “illegitimate” airplay, we should consider that many of the Canadian artists that got a boost from the introduction of Cancon regulations in 1971 were one- or two-hit wonders. James Leroy and Denim? Ray Materick? A Foot in Cold Water? Crowbar? Patsy Gallant? The Parachute Club? Jane Siberry? Martha and the Muffins? I can name about one song by each of these. I do slightly better on folks like Nick Gilder, Keith Hampshire, and Ian Thomas, for whom I can name two or three. Like Joni Mitchell, all of these, and many others, spent time on Canadian charts. But for sheer volume of well-known and common work that also qualifies as Cancon, it’s hard to beat Joni Mitchell–not forgetting, of course, the Guess Who, Burton Cummings (as a soloist), Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Rush, Shania Twain, and (you knew this was coming) Celine Dion. They were more than one- or two-hit wonders; they actually kept producing fresh work, thus ensuring that they were often in the public ear. I’d suggest that Joni Mitchell didn’t get airplay because she was Canadian–many others, now mostly forgotten, were Canadian too. Rather, it was because she kept producing chartable work long after other Canadian artists with whom she once shared chart space had fallen off the charts. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/58 "2010-04-27T19:20:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To be fair, a case could be made that Dylan behaved like kind of an asshole towards Baez at least, who went out of her way to further his career back when she was a much bigger name than he was. IIRC, Dylan himself finally admitted he’d acted like an asshole in their relationship and apologized to Baez, in a documentary about her not long ago. > > And in any case, I’m not sure I buy the accusation about Baez’s “incredibly bitter” attitude towards Dylan. She’s said some negative things about him, sure, but some positive things too. I saw Joan Baez in concert last year. She still bitches about Dylan, on-stage, to this day. She’s bitter. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/59 "2010-04-27T19:50:51Z")
Dylan’s “first” would probably be going electric. That pissed off a lot of folk performers, and they felt he had sold out. Interesting bit on that (and how true it might or might not be) is here: > **[Electric Dylan controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Dylan_controversy)** > > By 1965, Bob Dylan was the leading songwriter of the American folk music revival.\[a 1\] The response to his albums The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan and The Times They Are a-Changin' led the media to label him the "spokesman of a generation". > In March 1965, Dylan released his fifth album Bringing It All Back Home. Side one features him backed by an electric band, while side two features him accompanying himself on acoustic guitar. On July 20, 1965, he released his single "Like a Rolling Stone" featuring... Arlo Guthrie tells a story of Dylan visiting Woodie at the Guthrie house - so it isn’t like Dylan ignored his fore bearers. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/60 "2010-04-27T19:53:12Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Just a point to correct here: it is perfectly legal to not play Joni Mitchell. It is also perfectly legal to not play Neil Young, Loverboy, and Rush. What is illegal (in the sense that the CRTC will enforce the matter, not the police) is not playing the required amount of Cancon–which stands at 35%, last time I checked. That could be made up of the above artists, but it need not be–no artist is mandated to be played. > > As for whether Joni Mitchell was getting “illegitimate” airplay, we should consider that many of the Canadian artists that got a boost from the introduction of Cancon regulations in 1971 were one- or two-hit wonders. James Leroy and Denim? Ray Materick? A Foot in Cold Water? Crowbar? Patsy Gallant? The Parachute Club? Jane Siberry? Martha and the Muffins? I can name about one song by each of these. I do slightly better on folks like Nick Gilder, Keith Hampshire, and Ian Thomas, for whom I can name two or three. Like Joni Mitchell, all of these, and many others, spent time on Canadian charts. > > But for sheer volume of well-known and common work that also qualifies as Cancon, it’s hard to beat Joni Mitchell–not forgetting, of course, the Guess Who, Burton Cummings (as a soloist), Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Rush, Shania Twain, and (you knew this was coming) Celine Dion. They were more than one- or two-hit wonders; they actually kept producing fresh work, thus ensuring that they were often in the public ear. I’d suggest that Joni Mitchell didn’t get airplay because she was Canadian–many others, now mostly forgotten, were Canadian too. Rather, it was because she kept producing chartable work long after other Canadian artists with whom she once shared chart space had fallen off the charts. I don’t get bringing the CanCon issue into Joni Mitchell at all. Is someone saying that she would not have had the considerable success she had in the States were it not for CanCon??? I don’t honestly see how this has anything to do with it. Furthermore, the MAPL system wasn’t established until 1971, by which time Mitchell had already released her first four albums and had enjoyed a massive hit with Judy Collins’ cover of “Both Sides Now” and CSNY’s “Woodstock.” Each of those first four albums sold well, with the last two reaching the Top 20 on the album charts and the Top 10 in the UK. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471.md?page=4)