# Joni Mitchell: why is she so bitter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 27, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471 "2010-04-27T00:11:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SaharaTea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/61 "2010-04-27T19:58:03Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I saw Joan Baez in concert last year. She still bitches about Dylan, on-stage, to this day. She’s bitter. I think it was in the Scorsese documentary _ **No Direction Home** _ where Baez said something like, “I don’t know who Dylan really is, I just know what he gave us.” Obviously she has conflicting feelings about him, but she also has enormous respect for his contribution to music. I think a lot of people who know him personally feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/62 "2010-04-27T20:11:49Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Nitpick (sorry, couldn’t resist): It’s “Morgellons”, not 'Morgellon’s". I think it’s actually “Morning Morgellontown”. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/63 "2010-04-27T20:22:40Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > I’m pretty sure Judy Collins has. I’m at work so I’m not going to Google “Judy Collins ass.” I was under the impression Collins wanted to show more of her body for the 1979 album “Hard Times for Lovers” but the record company nixed it. Never bought the album so I don’t know what the inner sleeve has. > **[Hard Times for Lovers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Times_for_Lovers)** > > Hard Times for Lovers is the twelfth studio album by American singer and songwriter Judy Collins, released by Elektra Records in 1979. > It was Collins's first new recording since Bread and Roses, in 1976; it earned some extra publicity as a result of the back cover of the Francesco Scavullo-photographed sleeve art, depicting most of a nude Collins as seen from the back. The album was still something of a commercial disappointment, however, peaking at No. 54 on the Billboard Pop Albums charts. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/64 "2010-04-27T20:56:31Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Ask anyone about a 60s protest singer and you get Dylan. OK maybe you might get a few “Peter, Paul and Mary” fans I dunno, I see them all as little satellites around [Chuck Mitchell](https://www.mitchellsong.com/bio.php) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/65 "2010-04-27T21:03:29Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > I don’t get bringing the CanCon issue into Joni Mitchell at all. See **In Winnipeg** ’s remarks in post 35. > [@DChord568](#): > > Is someone saying that she would not have had the considerable success she had in the States were it not for CanCon??? Not sure, but that’s what I’m inferring when **In Winnipeg** stated, again in post 35, “I think it’s hilarious that she wants to call names, when she owes a big part of her career (at the time she was getting established) to government legislation.” ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/66 "2010-04-27T21:23:00Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > See **In Winnipeg** ’s remarks in post 35. > > Not sure, but that’s what I’m inferring when **In Winnipeg** stated, again in post 35, “I think it’s hilarious that she wants to call names, when she owes a big part of her career (at the time she was getting established) to government legislation.” But my point is that this is patently untrue. Mitchell was an established artist with four charting albums to her credit and several songwriting successes for others before the CanCon regulations ever took effect in 1971. And in any case, those regulations only affected radio airplay in Canada, and had no bearing on radio airplay in the U.S. or the UK. Even if there were no time element involved here, the idea that U.S. DJ’s (and it was they, not Program Directors, who made this call, as Joni was an FM artist and no one was yet dictating to “underground” DJ’s what to play) would play an artist because he/she/they were getting a lot of Canadian airplay is absurd. I know, because I was such a DJ in the early 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/67 "2010-04-27T21:27:47Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I saw Joan Baez in concert last year. She still bitches about Dylan, on-stage, to this day. :dubious: I don’t think an artist in performance saying something negative about another artist that she’s well known for having had a longstanding connection and famous falling-out with automatically equates to being “incredibly bitter” about him. Yeah sure, Baez criticizes Dylan in public sometimes. (She also praises Dylan in public sometimes.) You may choose to interpret that as “incredible bitterness” fueled by professional/artistic jealousy if you want, but that’s basically your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/68 "2010-04-27T21:47:16Z")
> [@DChord568](#): > > But my point is that this is patently untrue. I agree. No argument from me on this one. I’d suggest that your debate lies with **In Winnipeg**. > [@](#): > > …as Joni was an FM artist… ISTR that even prior to the Cancon regs coming into force, she got airplay on Canadian AM stations, so she wasn’t necessarily an FM artist to Canadians. But that may not necessarily have been the case to others elsewhere, granted. > [@](#): > > I know, because I was such a DJ in the early 70s. I was an on-air DJ too: FM, early 80s, and in Canada. As you might guess, I had to know the Cancon regs well in those days. I’m no longer on-air, but Cancon remains a subject of interest to me; and I’ve done a fair bit of research and writing on the history, legality, and scope of CRTC jurisdiction, the CRTC’s enabling legislation, and the Cancon regs themselves. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/69 "2010-04-27T22:10:32Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > As for whether Joni Mitchell was getting “illegitimate” airplay, we should consider that many of the Canadian artists that got a boost from the introduction of Cancon regulations in 1971 were one- or two-hit wonders. James Leroy and Denim? Ray Materick? A Foot in Cold Water? Crowbar? Patsy Gallant? The Parachute Club? Jane Siberry? Martha and the Muffins? I can name about one song by each of these. I do slightly better on folks like Nick Gilder, Keith Hampshire, and Ian Thomas, for whom I can name two or three. Like Joni Mitchell, all of these, and many others, spent time on Canadian charts. I’ll give you the others, but if you are going to insist that Jane Siberry is only played because of CanCon, I’m going to have to ask you to meet me in the Pit. I am 100% American, have been a Jane Siberry fan for decades and consider her a genius songwriter - easily the equal of both Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan. On topic for this thread, she is also self-absorbed, a very difficult interview and was - on one occasion - a genuine bitch towards Victoria Williams, one of the sweetest human beings on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/70 "2010-04-27T22:22:06Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Oh, come on … > > Everybody between 30 and 70 has heard the name Bob Dylan or knows at least one of his songs (sadly, mostly\* Blowin’\*), but who but those really interested in the 60’s folk scene has ever heard of Ochs or one of his songs? I saw him live several times. I had all his albums. Of course i was a fan. I also was a fan of Ian and Sylvia, Dave Van Ronk, Cisco Houston, Broadside Ballads albums, and the whole genre. He came up on Jeopardy once. They played a musical intro. I immediately identified it as “I Ain’t a Marchin Anymore”. I yhink from the album “all the news thats fit to sing.” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/71 "2010-04-27T22:38:40Z")
> [@In\_Winnipeg](#): > > Regarding Mitchell’s talent and recognition as mentioned in the Markxxx and RickJay exchange, above: > > Sorry, but I never saw anything really appealing about her, talent-wise. I find her shrill and her voice unappealing. In fact, if it wasn’t for CanCon Rules, I doubt if I would have ever really heard of her, because I seriously doubt that anyone would have given her any radio airplay in Canada otherwise. Of course, the fact that she was chalking up so much (illigitimate) airplay (which was only because she was Canadian, and for no other real reason) didn’t go unnoticed although those elsewhere didn’t realize that it was only because it was against the law here _not_ to play her (and other Canadian artists, of which there were only so many at the time). This would be an interesting point if it wasn’t for the fact that Mitchell became a successful recording artist **before CanCon rules existed**. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/72 "2010-04-28T00:04:46Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I saw Joni Mitchell perform at the first Farm Aid concert, 25 years ago. The whole thing lasted about 13 hours, and she came on around hour 9 or 10, I think. > Halfway through her first song, she began railing at members of the audience for not paying attention to her. “How can you hear the music if you’re talking?” … “Why would you even come here and not listen?” and so forth. Most people _were_ listening, but she seemed offended that she didn’t have the rapt focus of a crowd of tens of thousands that had been there all damn day already. > > So I think maybe it’s just her personality. Having heard a similar tale from my then-guitar teacher at the [Old Town School of Folk Music,](http://oldtownschool.org/) I would tend to concur. Apparently when the school opened its new HQ building in 1998, she was the headliner at the inaugural benefit concert. She launched into a bunch of tunes from her then-current album. The audience, however, wanted to hear the stuff that had made her famous, and their attention soon started to wander. Apparently the lack of audience focus made her so livid that she actually stormed off the stage after a rant about how obviously nobody properly appreciated her, and that was the end of her set. ---
**Author:** ![koeeoaddi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/koeeoaddi/32/408_2.png) [@koeeoaddi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koeeoaddi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/73 "2010-04-28T00:15:49Z")
Just don’t get her started on [Jackson Browne](http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=11989). **gonzomax** , have you been rooting around in my record collection? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/74 "2010-04-28T00:49:54Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You may be whooshing me here - but to be clear: > > You: Voice = vocals > > Me: Voice = artistic Voice I’ll take your word for it, because I don’t actually know what “artistic voice” means. I just know that Bob Dylan mumbles, has a whiny voice, and that I don’t like listening to him. I do like listening to Joni Mitchell, though. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/75 "2010-04-28T00:51:19Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > But for sheer volume of well-known and common work that also qualifies as Cancon, it’s hard to beat Joni Mitchell–not forgetting, of course, the Guess Who, Burton Cummings (as a soloist), Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Rush, Shania Twain, and (you knew this was coming) Celine Dion. They were more than one- or two-hit wonders; they actually kept producing fresh work, thus ensuring that they were often in the public ear. I’d suggest that Joni Mitchell didn’t get airplay because she was Canadian–many others, now mostly forgotten, were Canadian too. Rather, it was because she kept producing chartable work long after other Canadian artists with whom she once shared chart space had fallen off the charts. No Anne Murray? Shame on you and your Canuck roots! 😛 I am of a mind that singers should sing. Sure, sing political, but I am not interested in the drama surrounding the talent. IMO, Dylan is over-hyped and over-worshipped. Hell, you’ll find more objective criticism about the Beatles than about Dylan. He can’t sing for shit, but he knew how to market himself and he IS a talented lyricist and songwriter. Joni and Joan strike me as being a tad unprofessional on stage regarding fellow performers. Then again, walking offstage because you don’t feel the audience is appreciating you to YOUR satisfaction implies a huge, not connected with reality ego… I call it a draw. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/76 "2010-04-28T01:23:57Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I agree. No argument from me on this one. I’d suggest that your debate lies with **In Winnipeg**. Oh, I know. I wasn’t aiming any of my comments at you, but since you quoted his posts in the here and now, and he has yet to reappear since his initial one, it was to you I replied. Thanks for the support, and nice to know we were once in the same racket! ---
**Author:** ![banjoDavid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@banjoDavid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/banjoDavid)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/77 "2010-04-28T05:24:12Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Having heard a similar tale from my then-guitar teacher at the [Old Town School of Folk Music,](http://oldtownschool.org/) I would tend to concur. Apparently when the school opened its new HQ building in 1998, she was the headliner at the inaugural benefit concert. She launched into a bunch of tunes from her then-current album. > > The audience, however, wanted to hear the stuff that had made her famous, and their attention soon started to wander. Apparently the lack of audience focus made her so livid that she actually stormed off the stage after a rant about how obviously nobody properly appreciated her, and that was the end of her set. The Old Town School flew her in on a private flight because she wouldn’t fly commercially because she wanted to smoke. Someone in the crowd at the show yawned, she stormed off stage, and wrote, “Get some sleep, Chicago,” on the wall in the green room. Maybe I know this because I read that wall many times as I was teaching in that room? David ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/78 "2010-04-28T05:32:44Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Or Joan Baez. I had to go all the way to Germany to learn about Joan Baez. My German exchange Mother was incredulous and quite upset that I didn’t “know Joan Baez”… She played her record and I was schooled. Had no idea, about her until I heard [Where Have all the Flowers Gone](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz_eJqQCCig) on a leather sofa in a theologist’s living room in Hessen. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/79 "2010-04-28T06:37:01Z")
and so sweet… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471/80 "2010-04-28T09:37:42Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I think it’s actually “Morning Morgellontown”. Morgellon Crescent! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchell-why-is-she-so-bitter/537471.md?page=5)