# Joni Mitchell's "Clouds" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 9, 2015, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921 "2015-12-09T08:39:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/21 "2015-12-09T23:30:31Z")
Carole King belongs in the discussion as well. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/22 "2015-12-09T23:36:18Z")
20th century composers. > [@hajario](#): > > Woody Guthrie > Bob Dylan > Leonard Cohen > Robert Hunter > > Not even close. Could any of those even write lyrics like: “Besides which you see I have confidence in me.” “I’m wild again, beguiled again, a simpering whimpering child again.” “And let it not be forgot that once there was a spot. A one brief shining moment that was known as Camelot.” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/23 "2015-12-10T01:28:52Z")
> [@koeeoaddi](#): > > I think Leonard Cohen and Joni Mitchell are pretty evenly matched. No Joni can sing and play and her melodies make Cohen’s sound like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. Cohen has a certain something, particularly lyrically but seriously… ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/24 "2015-12-10T01:31:36Z")
> [@Wilson](#): > > I’m more of a _Blue_ fan, but any and all early Joni is excellent. She’s definitely under-appreciated, although I imagine that her reputation amongst musicians is way higher than with the general public. Me too which is why I haven’t listened to Clouds much in recent years. The problem with Blue however is that it invokes such a feeling of melancholy I have to double my medication for a week 😉 ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/25 "2015-12-10T01:51:12Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > And not to kick sand in **up\_the\_junction** ’s face, but when I saw Joni perform it several years ago on some award show, it broke my heart, and not in a good way ☹ Well, she’s a 70-something woman, it woud be something if she could sing. I was comparing recordings I guess. As an aide all I remember of Love Actually is the scene Richard Curtis created for Emma Thompson - a gift given and received between two dear old friends; her portrayal of betrayal recognised was wonderful. I think it was wordless so Both Sides Now may have played over that. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/26 "2015-12-10T01:58:32Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Woody Guthrie > Bob Dylan > Leonard Cohen > Robert Hunter > > Not even close. You’re right it’s not even close. Bob Dylan’s lyrics are the best. But his music is not in the ballpark. It doesn’t mean he sucks but Jonis music is miles ahead of his. Neil Youngs music has been better than Bobs. Leonard the same, and he has been spotty too. Never came close to his first LP. He’s not a musician like the others. He is depressing and overrated in the press. Woody: he’s good but I don’t think so if Bob isn’t. Hunter: No way. I said she “might be” I’m not going to the wall against everyone else. If you said Lennon, McCartney or Brian Wilson, or Neil you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/27 "2015-12-10T02:52:48Z")
I also forgot to say, not that you’re a sexist, but this list is a bunch of males, who all make music, lets say, heavily inspired by folk sources. Sometimes they’re just magpies. Could Joni get away with that and have people pimping her in critical lists all the time? That’s why I posted in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/28 "2015-12-10T03:02:19Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > She might be the best songwriter of the 20th century. If she was a guy people would have no problem in saying it. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > I also forgot to say, not that you’re a sexist, but this list is a bunch of males, who all make music, lets say, heavily inspired by folk sources. Sometimes they’re just magpies. Could Joni get away with that and have people pimping her in critical lists all the time? That’s why I posted in the first place. You said that if she was a guy, she would be considered to be better by many (most?) people, so of course I listed a bunch of men. Also, you specifically talked about song writing, not performing, so Dylan or Cohen’s singing voice is irrelevant. Obviously, Joni wins there. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/29 "2015-12-10T03:49:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > You said that if she was a guy, she would be considered to be better by many (most?) people, so of course I listed a bunch of men. Also, you specifically talked about song writing, not performing, so Dylan or Cohen’s singing voice is irrelevant. Obviously, Joni wins there. i don’t see the logic behind your statement. Of course you listed men? You listed exactly the people who are overestimated to Jonis detriment, and every one of them is much more derivative than she is. If Joni had taken as many of others melodies as Bob she would never be forgiven. It’s a dudes world. I never once mentioned any of their singing voices. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/30 "2015-12-10T05:17:53Z")
What **Hajario** said is logical. He was saying “here’s a bunch of men who are better on the basis of merit not sexism”. Now you and I can disagree on grounds of taste but what **Hajario** said was rational. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/31 "2015-12-10T07:06:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What **Hajario** said is logical. He was saying “here’s a bunch of men who are better on the basis of merit not sexism”. Now you and I can disagree on grounds of taste but what **Hajario** said was rational. That’s true. But you could also say it was an illustration of my thesis. That is all much more derivative, and yet to many critics joni is not as great. You can be stumbling along, copping melodies and lyrical themes, but if you’re a guy it’s a good thing. Joni is a master of her art on a different order entirely. But people remember her as a high pitched folk singer. If she was a male colleague of Dylan, Cohen etc. she would be worshipped by those same people, IMMHOO. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/32 "2015-12-10T08:17:44Z")
Personally I know no one who worships Dylan who doesn’t worship Joni. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/33 "2015-12-10T13:27:37Z")
“Best songwriter” deserves its own thread. Have to decide if it is all of the 20th century or focused on the “folk / rock / blues” genres or something. In **Elvis Costello’s** memoir, I believe, he cites a conversation with Joni where he asks her who her songwriting peers are. She replied Dylan for lyrics and Miles Davis for melody. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/34 "2015-12-10T17:09:40Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Personally I know no one who worships Dylan who doesn’t worship Joni. YMMV. I know there is a lot of Joni dissing in the world. I’ve heard it forever, from Bob fans along with the rest. Even saying she’s “just OK” counts as a dis to me though. There should be a thread for divisive musicians too, the ones who people either love or hate. (I’m a huge fan so to me their hatred is irrational): Steely Dan, Todd Rundgren, Joni… ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/35 "2015-12-10T17:11:21Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > “Best songwriter” deserves its own thread. Have to decide if it is all of the 20th century or focused on the “folk / rock / blues” genres or something. > > In **Elvis Costello’s** memoir, I believe, he cites a conversation with Joni where he asks her who her songwriting peers are. She replied Dylan for lyrics and Miles Davis for melody. There’s no lack of ego in that statement, wot? Joni has been sort of scathing about Bob before. She thinks he got away with murder basically, probably referring to his music and vocal persona. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/36 "2015-12-10T17:19:53Z")
If “she’s not as good as Dylan” counts as dissing, then you might have a point. No one here said that Joni is bad or even average. The one time I saw Joni live was on a triple bill with Dylan and Van Morrison. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/37 "2015-12-10T17:58:05Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > If “she’s not as good as Dylan” counts as dissing, then you might have a point. No one here said that Joni is bad or even average. > > The one time I saw Joni live was on a triple bill with Dylan and Van Morrison. No but lumping her with Jackson Browne or Joan Baez or Judy Collins, as if there’s no difference, or defining her as her high voice only and saying it’s annoying or making fun of it, or saying she’s “OK”, is dissing her to me. I’ve been hearing it since she was making her great albums. Rock is a real mans business you know. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/38 "2015-12-10T18:14:28Z")
We move in very different circles no doubt. I just don’t hear these things. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/39 "2015-12-10T21:15:36Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > We move in very different circles no doubt. I just don’t hear these things. I’ll say: I’m in New England. Here’s an example: Marc Maron is a comedian who has one of the most successful podcasts. He talks to all the good guests touring selling their book or record. Iggy pop, Wayne Kramer, Louis CK, Amy Schumer, Lorne Michaels is going to be on. etc… He had Obama on recently. It was huge obviously. His taste is decent and he plays guitar, but he had a producer on recently and the topic got to Joni and he just didn’t get it. It was like the guy had to apologize and soft soap it for Maron, just because she wasn’t hard rock. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921/40 "2015-12-10T21:43:26Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > In **Elvis Costello’s** memoir, I believe, he cites a conversation with Joni where he asks her who her songwriting peers are. She replied Dylan for lyrics and Miles Davis for melody. Well I can’t argue with that assessment. It’s unacceptable to say it about yourself but Costello should have more class than to (a) ask and (b) repeat the answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joni-mitchells-clouds/739921.md?page=3)