# Jordan Peterson Re-structured Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 4, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685 "2023-01-04T23:24:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/41 "2023-01-05T03:26:46Z")
Sure he did. That’s what refusing to use someone’s pronouns means. It’s the fundamental denial of the existence of trans people, regardless of the provable harm that such a stance inflicts on trans people. It is a fundamentally hostile, discriminatory act. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/42 "2023-01-05T03:34:16Z")
But do you agree that _sometimes_ disagreement can be hateful? Once you at least concede that then we can discuss whether Peterson’s comments rise to that level. And then we can discuss whether professional organizations have the right and/or obligation to require their members to avoid hateful speech when using social media. Finally, we can discuss whether professional organizations requiring members to take training on avoiding hateful speech when using social media is “re-education” or merely “education”. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/43 "2023-01-05T03:34:25Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > Dr. Peterson is on record that he does not wish others having “custody of his tongue”. > > _He doesn’t wish to speak what he believes isn’t true_ Dr Peterson is (or was) a university professor. Let’s consider a hypothetical. What if a university professor made it clear to his classes that in his opinion, racial equality is bogus, and the white race is genetically superior to other races. The professor believes that to be true. Students file a complaint with the university, arguing that the professor’s positions are affecting their right to an education without discrimination. Can the professor argue that no-one should have custody over his tongue, on matters that the professor believes to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/44 "2023-01-05T03:35:55Z")
Actually, never mind @EnolaStraight. Jordan Peterson isn’t worth the time. I’ll step out now. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/45 "2023-01-05T08:29:10Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > I don’t think he ever said somebody else didn’t have the right to exist. …what is it, do you think that people are objecting to? For example, he wrote something horrifically nasty about the actor Elliot Page. It was so horrible I won’t even post it here, instead I’ll link to an (edited) version instead. (Warning, contains edited transphobia) [Jordan Peterson returns to Twitter by pathetically deadnaming Elliot Page again](https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/08/27/jordan-peterson-elliot-page-twitter-deadnaming/) Peterson makes it clear that he believes that: (transphobic content censored) "trans people a “viciously harmful fad”. He has described being trans as a “[contagion](https://thepinknews.com/2022/01/27/jordan-peterson-joe-rogan-spotify-podcast-trans/)” similar to “satanic ritual abuse” and said young people are being “[convinced they’re transgender](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/jordan-peterson-gay-kids-convinced-transsexual-not-good-gay/)“. I think that Peterson makes his position on transgender people quite clear here, and he would, like many others who hold similar views, be perfectly happy if transgender people would stop exisiting. Do you see differently? Care to explain how? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/46 "2023-01-05T09:03:39Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > Is it hate to disagree with somebody else? Not to pile on, but even without going into the details of Peterson’s views this is obviously silly rhetoric. Are you claiming that it is impossible to _hold_ a position that entails hatred? If we hypothesize one person who holds hateful views and another person who doesn’t, then they disagree with each other, don’t they. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/47 "2023-01-05T10:24:13Z")
Tangentially related, a couple of years ago I asked if it were OK to reject a therapist because they were a Trump supporter. The general consensus was that it’s best to seek a therapist who most comports with your values: > [@If I'm looking for a therapist, is it OK to ask if they are a Trump supporter?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-im-looking-for-a-therapist-is-it-ok-to-ask-if-they-are-a-trump-supporter/928400): > > Was having a conversation with a lady-friend yesterday and, in the course of the discussion, the above question was raised. She thought it doesn’t matter. Me, it goes to values. And, as I told her, I have little desire to see any doctor who voted for a COVID mitigation strategy which, at the time of the vote, was expected to kill another 1-3 million fellow citizens. Seems to be a violation of the hippocratic oath. What say you? If you’re looking for a therapist (and in my mind, I’m picturing l… ---
**Author:** ![EnolaStraight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@EnolaStraight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnolaStraight)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/48 "2023-01-05T12:44:07Z")
I would think Dr. Peterson would…as a psychologist/therapist doing a clinical assessment…find some instances where agreeing would cause more harm than good. If a patient of his was a girl with anorexia nervosa insisted that, despite presenting as skin and bones, she is actually fat and needs to starve off another ten pounds. No…agreeing with her would be very wrong in this case. Objectivity is as important as empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/49 "2023-01-05T12:55:47Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > agreeing with her would be very wrong in this case Your logic is analogous to: I have found an example of a fruit that is not yellow, therefore a banana is not yellow. How does a hypothetical example of a non-hateful attitude prove that _Peterson’s_ attitudes are not hateful? It is an obvious and disingenuous straw man to suggest that anyone thinks the problem is that Peterson “disagrees” with anyone _per se_. The problem is specifically _what he disagrees with_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/50 "2023-01-05T13:15:39Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > Objectivity is as important as empathy. Indeed! Let’s take two cases: 1. A patient presents with anorexia nervosa, a condition with clear guidelines for treatment, but insists that her therapist not follow them. Her therapist, a licensed professional, follows the clear guidelines. Should he be sanctioned by the licensing body? 2. A patient presents with clinical depression, a condition with clear guidelines for treatment, and insists that her therapist follow the guidelines. Her therapist, a licensed professional, refuses to follow the clear guidelines. Should he be sanctioned by the licensing body? My answers are: 1. No 2. Yes What are your answers? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/51 "2023-01-05T13:20:30Z")
There is also the even more egregious analogy where transgenderism is being compared to an actual behavioral disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/52 "2023-01-05T13:29:48Z")
To be clear, I’m analogizing depression to gender dysphoria, not to transgenderism. [Gender dysphoria](https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria) is a condition that definitionally makes people miserable, and it has clear diagnosis and treatment protocols. It’s also well-known that certain social conditions can exacerbate the symptoms of gender dysphoria–specifically, rejection of gender identity and stigmatization contribute to the dysphoria, and likely to the increased risk of violent victimization and suicide. Peterson not only is rejecting the established protocols for treating gender dysphoria. He’s also engaging in the exact sort of rejection of gender identity and stigmatization that’s known to make the condition worse, in contravention of professional guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/53 "2023-01-05T13:30:27Z")
To clarify, I was referencing this: > [@EnolaStraight](#): > > If a patient of his was a girl with anorexia nervosa insisted that, despite presenting as skin and bones, she is actually fat and needs to starve off another ten pounds. > > No…agreeing with her would be very wrong in this case. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/54 "2023-01-05T13:33:22Z")
A good psychologist probably wouldn’t agree or disagree. They, well good ones, rarely express their opinion. What the psychologist believes isn’t important, what is important is the thinking of the patient. They would probably ask them what is the evidence that they are fat. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/55 "2023-01-05T13:36:06Z")
> [@EnolaStraight](#): > > If a patient of his was a girl with anorexia nervosa insisted that, despite presenting as skin and bones, she is actually fat and needs to starve off another ten pounds. > > No…agreeing with her would be very wrong in this case. And if the therapist did agree with the patient and encourage her in her views, because the therapist didn’t agree that anorexia was a disorder, should the professional regulatory body have the authority to require the therapist to take courses on the issue of anorexia and the treatment of it? Or would that be requiring “re-education” contrary to the therapist’s personal beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/56 "2023-01-05T13:36:09Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > They would probably ask them what is the evidence that they are fat. Whereas they [a respectable therapist] would not ask a trans man for the evidence that he is a man. Because it is not a disorder or a delusion. Hence @JohnT’s point - the analogy is in itself hateful and transphobic, just as Peterson’s views are hateful and transphobic. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/57 "2023-01-05T13:37:38Z")
Peterson might and that’s the problem, but yes, I agree. I guess to be more complete they should follow the guidelines of the profession, which currently (and correctly) state that it is not. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/58 "2023-01-05T13:44:08Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685/59 "2023-01-05T13:48:36Z")
Warning issued to @EnolaStraight for working very hard to try and sneak in a post violating the rules of implying transgender people are mentally ill. > [@Reorganized SDMB rules](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/reorganized-sdmb-rules/968857/1): > > Please do not state or imply that transgender people are mentally ill. We realize the question remains controversial. However, we’re not going to settle the matter here, and raising it tends to poison other discussion of transgender issues. Please keep your opinions on the subject to yourself. This thread is closed. Do not start any new ones on Jordan Peterson. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jordan-peterson-re-structured-thread/977685.md?page=2)