# Jörg Haider ist kaput. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476 "2008-10-11T15:24:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/21 "2008-10-12T20:11:03Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Oh you wacky Europeans. What you consider Nazi would be considered center-right in the United States. Well, no. I think the Europeans would have a quite good idea of what constitutes a Nazi, and it’s rather more vile than anything the States can boast. John McCain is center-right - I disagree with the man’s politics, but he’s a decent human being. Nazis are not. Thanks to Pimms and Adrian for the ignorance-fighting! ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/22 "2008-10-12T21:34:47Z")
Well, no, John McCain isn’t literally a member of the NSDAP, neither is Haider. What I’m getting at is that most of Haider’s political positions, in the US, would be left of center and probably more liberal than Obama’s. Throw in the few right-wing positions that he holds, most of which seem to revolve around the power of the EU and immigration from Turkey, topics of limited relevance to the average American, and at best, he is a center-rightist. Europeans call him a Nazi because by European standards, he was pretty far to the right, the US is just so far off to the right in comparison that Europeans won’t even find it on the chart. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/23 "2008-10-12T21:37:17Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > Europeans call him a Nazi because by European standards, he was pretty far to the right, … Actually they call Haider a Nazi because he consorted with actual former Nazis and defended their actions. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/24 "2008-10-12T21:40:32Z")
No, Europeans call him a Nazi because he publically admired the Nazis, minimised the actions of the Nazis, and was descended from active and unrepentant (basically) Nazis. Simulpost! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/25 "2008-10-12T21:54:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Throatwarbler** : Haider’s political positions, in the US, would be left of center and probably more liberal than Obama’s. More liberal policies except for the Jews would would have no policies at all? Not buying it. Nazi sympathizer. I think that political trends in the last ten years in Austria have surprised even Austrians. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/26 "2008-10-12T23:27:07Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think that political trends in the last ten years in Austria have surprised even Austrians. We should give them back Arnold Schwarzenegger. ---
**Author:** ![SweetLucy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@SweetLucy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SweetLucy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/27 "2008-10-14T02:13:52Z")
I’m sure he and his dreamboat Adolf are happy together now :mad: ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/28 "2008-10-14T10:28:02Z")
He seems to have been a right royal shit-stirrer too. According to the Grauniad print obituary he supported Turkey’s entry into the EU when all other main parties in Austria were against it. He also went to meet Saddam Hussein before the 2003 invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/29 "2008-10-14T12:40:01Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > More liberal policies except for the Jews would would have no policies at all? Not buying it. Nazi sympathizer. Right, but I think the point is that European “far-right” types actually tend to espouse a fairly weird mix of xenophobia and populist economics; the BNP in the UK, for example, are pretty economically socialist (when they’re economically coherent at all). By certain US political criteria, I think you would indeed find that Haider was a flaming leftie. His last party, for example, supported the nationalisation of all agriculture and a Europe-wide eco-tax. Not a particularly conservative way of doing things. It’s like the exact opposite of the argument we had recently about whether the Economist was “liberal” or “conservative” in a US context; in both instances the debate is almost entirely orthogonal to how American politics seems to work. There’s no point trying to fit either of them into American pigeonholes, because they just don’t go. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/30 "2008-10-14T12:48:27Z")
McCain take note: this shows the dangers of right-wing politicians veering too far to the Left. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/31 "2008-10-14T12:56:43Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > By certain US political criteria, I think you would indeed find that Haider was a flaming leftie. His last party, for example, supported the nationalisation of all agriculture and a Europe-wide eco-tax. Not a particularly conservative way of doing things. Well, it’s not like actual Nazis were far-right, economically. Far-right social conservatism and big-statist economic central planning would pretty much describe actual Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/32 "2008-10-14T17:07:16Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > By the way: It is nice to see the international makeup of the dope taking an interest in our area here; reassuring that some people care about Europe as well when everybody is so interested in the American election. Don’t get your hopes up: we really only care when you elect crazy people. I bet more Americans knew who Enoch Powell was than Edward Heath. Similarly, I bet more Americans have heard the name Jörg Haider than the name Alfred Guesenbauer by a factor of 2 to 1. (Austrian Chancellor, for those of you taking notes) I had to Google for his [Guesenbauer’s] name, and I’m probably more aware of global politics than 99.9% of the US population. My degree is in comparative politics and foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/33 "2008-10-15T21:29:12Z")
Well, turns out he was pissed as a newt when he decided to drive to his mum’s. A nazi and a drunk-driver - just glad he didn’t take anyone else with him. Should put the ol’ conspiracy theories to rest (although no doubt his drink was spiked etc etc). ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/34 "2008-10-15T21:58:29Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In a car crash. This one’s going to fuel conspiracy theories for his party that will last a thousand years. Yes, isn’t that how they got rid of that nutty Falco as well? ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/35 "2008-10-17T14:19:11Z")
Volkswagen are actually promoting the “sabotage” theory, as their view is the car should have withstood the crash better than it did. Seems Herr Haider was also one for the boys… he’d been out drinking in a gay bar in Klagenfurt before his final drive (nothing wrong with that unless you happen to be leader of a right-wing anti-gay party). (What is it about neo-nazis and young boys anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/36 "2008-10-17T14:27:28Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Volkswagen are actually promoting the “sabotage” theory, as their view is the car should have withstood the crash better than it did. > > Seems Herr Haider was also one for the boys… he’d been out drinking in a gay bar in Klagenfurt before his final drive (nothing wrong with that unless you happen to be leader of a right-wing anti-gay party). > > (What is it about neo-nazis and young boys anyway?) I have this pet theory that the swastika is actually a stylized depiction of buttsecks. But that’s neither here nor there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/37 "2008-10-17T15:29:44Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > :smack: > Well, no. And I didn’t actually read the party description of his former party… or the bits about honoring the SS and praising the employment tactics of the Third Reich. [Employment tactics of the Third Reich.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front) They were useful for some purposes, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Themenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@Themenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Themenin)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/38 "2008-10-17T19:01:39Z")
> [@Wallenstein](#): > > Seems Herr Haider was also one for the boys… he’d been out drinking in a gay bar in Klagenfurt before his final drive (nothing wrong with that unless you happen to be leader of a right-wing anti-gay party). > > (What is it about neo-nazis and young boys anyway?) You seem to be saying that it’s only ok to be gay as long as your politics are correct ? Seems like a cheap shot. I don’t recall Joerg Haider taking any particular stance with regard to homosexuality, did he ? There are gay right-wingers (Pim Fortuyn) and gay left-wingers (Bertrand Delanoe), I don’t know that there’s any correlation between sexual orientation and political leanings. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/39 "2008-10-17T19:18:26Z")
> [@Themenin](#): > > You seem to be saying that it’s only ok to be gay as long as your politics are correct ? Seems like a cheap shot. I don’t recall Joerg Haider taking any particular stance with regard to homosexuality, did he ? He was a Nazi apologist. Kind of leads one to assume he was a tad anti-gay. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476/40 "2008-10-17T19:24:35Z")
> [@Themenin](#): > > You seem to be saying that it’s only ok to be gay as long as your politics are correct ? Seems like a cheap shot. I don’t recall Joerg Haider taking any particular stance with regard to homosexuality, did he ? > > There are gay right-wingers (Pim Fortuyn) and gay left-wingers (Bertrand Delanoe), I don’t know that there’s any correlation between sexual orientation and political leanings. If you venerate a political movement that put 1000s of gay people in concentration camps, then no it’s not really OK to be gay (albeit with a wife and kids) and lead a far-right party. He also had a thing for underage Slavic boys (another group - Slavs - the ol’ nazis didn’t have much time for). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jorg-haider-ist-kaput/467476.md?page=3)