# Joseph McCarthy: Did he serve a positive purpose? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445 "2008-06-27T15:36:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/1 "2008-06-27T15:36:28Z")
Joe McCarthy has been the villain in almost all depictions of him or the era named for him at least for most of my life. However, in recent years he seems to have come into a more positive revisionism. The fact that Ann Coulter claims he was a positive force who never hurt anyone who wasn’t guilty doesn’t exactly exonerate him as she’d say the same of Joe Mengele if it suited her purpose and sold books, but (McCarthy’s former acolyte) William F. Buckley’s [apologia](http://www.amazon.com/McCarthy-His-Enemies-William-Buckley/dp/0895264722/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214580308&sr=1-4) was a bit better researched, and since then other articles and books have appeared attempting to salvage a bit of McCarthy’s reputation (most notably or at least most recently and best reviewed, [Blacklisted by History](http://www.amazon.com/Blacklisted-History-Senator-McCarthy-Americas/dp/140008105X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214579995&sr=8-1) by Stanton Evans. There seems no doubt that McCarthy was self serving, not above lying (even _he_ admitted, according to several sources, that he never had a list with the 205 [later reduced to 57] Commies in the State Department mentioned in the legendary Wheeling speech), and most certainly became drunk with power. OTOH, many who automatically condemn McCarthy, even in academia and in appropriate fields [history, poli-sci, etc.] seem unwilling to concede that there really _were_ Communist spy rings operating and they did pose a serious threat [and at least Julius Rosenberg if not Ethel was guilty as sin]. Some investigation did seem warranted. And on the other other hand, I can’t claim to be a serious student of the Cold War era of U.S. history, so I’d like to have some good points in order to research the matter. So what’s the real legacy of the distinguished gentleman from Wisconsin? Was he total villain, or did he serve (however villainously) a sincere purpose? Was McCarthyism as evil as its reputation or was it in part justified? Who would be among its most innocent victims? ([Philip Loeb](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0517222/) of the early hit show _The Goldbergs_ had his career destroyed and committed suicide due to his blacklisting, though both Buckley and Coulter when confronted with this in claiming “there were no innocent victims” basically responded “Yeah, but _was_ a Communist, and therefore not innocent”.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/2 "2008-06-27T15:45:47Z")
There were Communists in the State Department, but they had been purged long before McCarthy ever got wind of the issue. The story is told in [_It Didn’t Happen Here: Why Socialism Failed in the United States,_](http://www.amazon.com/Didnt-Happen-Here-Socialism-Failed/dp/0393322548) by Seymour Martin Lipset and Gary Marks. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/3 "2008-06-27T15:56:35Z")
Maybe as a case study in the dangers of political zealotry? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/4 "2008-06-27T16:01:19Z")
It is bizarre to watch tapes of McCarthy today-he actually terrorized people. Of course, in the end, most of the stuff he “uncovered” was just silly. particularly when he had his hatchetman (Roy Cohn) and Cpl. David Schein investigating Communist Infiltration of US Army bases! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/5 "2008-06-27T16:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] ([Philip Loeb](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0517222/) of the early hit show _The Goldbergs_ had his career destroyed and committed suicide due to his blacklisting, though both Buckley and Coulter when confronted with this in claiming “there were no innocent victims” basically responded “Yeah, but _was_ a Communist, and therefore not innocent”.) [/QUOTE] Well, the blacklisting of Loeb didn’t have much to do with McCarthy. He was fired from the Goldbergs because of the HUAC report on Communists in film and TV. McCarthy’s committee was a senate committee, and dealt with Communists in the federal government. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/6 "2008-06-27T16:15:12Z")
One irony about the McCarthy hearings was that several people, as with those called before HUAC, appealed to the ACLU for assistance and were told, in so many words, “we don’t help dirty bloody Commies!” The ACLU leader [Roger Baldwin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Nash_Baldwin) detested Communism (not for uninformed reasons I should add- he’d been to Stalinist Russia and had been very much a fan himself, but also later admitted he was wrong and had been duped and denounced it as a totalitarian evil and all positive things shown to westerners were a facade and became a far more zealous anti-Communist than he was a Communist sympathizer). Baldwin had actually purged the ACLU of Communist loyalists and sympathizers before McCarthy came to prominence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/7 "2008-06-27T16:36:46Z")
Well, the ACLU wasn’t alone in this. It was a Democratic congress that passed the McCarran Act. It was union leaders like Ronald Reagan and George Meany that purged Communists from the AFL-CIO and the Screen Actors Guild. Communists weren’t popular at the time, even among liberals. Nor should they have been - their views were pretty much indefensible. The question is whether things went too far. In the case of purging union leadership, probably not. These organizations had to maintain a reasonably strong position relative to management, and the presence of Communists could have hurt this. Other things, though, unquestionably went too far and ran afoul of free speech and association guarantees. McCarthy wasn’t the only anti-Communist in the country, and it seems a shame to pin the whole thing on him. The hysteria predated his rise, and he was brought low by the Eisenhower Administration denouncing him - using Nixon to do so, no stranger to Red-baiting himself. Frankly, I think he ought to be seen as a symptom of the times, not as a proximate cause of anything. And if you want to know the truth, this hysteria had been visited upon the country a couple of times before - against those same “Reds” during the Wilson administration and against “anarchists” shortly before that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/8 "2008-06-27T16:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, the blacklisting of Loeb didn’t have much to do with McCarthy. He was fired from the Goldbergs because of the HUAC report on Communists in film and TV. McCarthy’s committee was a senate committee, and dealt with Communists in the federal government. [/QUOTE] It should also be noted in the cause of fighting ignorance (not yours) that McCarthy was in the Senate. HUAC stands for the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. Aside from the fact that McCarthy was right, he served in other ways. He was the youngest judge to serve in Wisconsin and, quite amazingly, gave up his judgeship to fight in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/9 "2008-06-27T17:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Aside from the fact that McCarthy was right, he served in other ways. He was the youngest judge to serve in Wisconsin and, quite amazingly, gave up his judgeship to fight in WWII. [/QUOTE] Well, McCarthy didn’t start out bad, you know. But I’ll not call him right all the way down the line. However admirably he started (and he did start admirably) at the end he was a drunk who was losing his mind. And let’s not pretend that his wild charges were isolated from that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/10 "2008-06-27T17:20:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Well, McCarthy didn’t start out bad, you know. But I’ll not call him right all the way down the line. However admirably he started (and he did start admirably) at the end he was a drunk who was losing his mind. And let’s not pretend that his wild charges were isolated from that. [/QUOTE] Well, you might be correct. And it’s difficult to argue against when the charges are so unspecific. Other than him being a drunk. I just started Blacklisted by History though, so maybe you’re right. Or maybe you’re just parroting the kind of stuff that lead to the book being written. SO far, it seems that the consensus on McCarthy is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/11 "2008-06-27T17:22:19Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Aside from the fact that McCarthy was right… [/QUOTE] Well, right in what sense? There had been Soviet infiltration of the government in the 30s and 40s, but most of the Soviet spies had already been uncovered by things like the Bentley investigation. Most of the people that McCarthy accused were either innocent of any Communist connection, or had had past ties to the Communist Party or Communist front groups. As far as I know, none of the people McCarthy accused were actually Soviet agents or passing information. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/12 "2008-06-27T17:23:01Z")
Also, and I may be wrong about this, but there was a real Communist Menace. Real spy rings, real repression, real threats. Tailgunner Joe ensured anyone who was worried about all this was considered a crackpot. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/13 "2008-06-27T17:43:36Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Also, and I may be wrong about this, but there was a real Communist Menace. Real spy rings, real repression, real threats. Tailgunner Joe ensured anyone who was worried about all this was considered a crackpot. [/QUOTE] I agree with this. Later developments, such as the release of Venona transcripts, showed that there was a communist threat, but even so, McCarthy did more harm to his own side than good, mostly because McCarthy was out for himself. He wasn’t bringing attention to communists to get rid of communism; he was trying to score political points, and it all came crashing down. It’s no accident that one of his loudest supporters is Ann Coulter. They’re two peas in a pod. A couple of selfish ineloquent loudmouths whose few good arguments get lost in a sea of nuttiness. And thanks to their garbage, anyone who happens to agree with their general drift gets lumped in with the nuts. Joe split the anti-communist movement with his rants and tainted a legitimate cause with false accusations. He’s the best friend the American communists ever had. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/14 "2008-06-27T17:51:58Z")
Hunter S. Thompson had some choice words about McCarthy in one essay. Just your garden-variety thug who made it lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/15 "2008-06-27T17:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Well, you might be correct. And it’s difficult to argue against when the charges are so unspecific. Other than him being a drunk. [/QUOTE] It’s pretty inarguable that he was a drunk at the end. There is some debate about when this started to affect his job - some McCarthy supporters believe that he really only started hitting the bottle hard after the censure. There really isn’t much to support this, IMHO. I think it is pretty clear that he was hitting it a lot sooner - when Washington socializing and the pressures of being there hit him hard. He died of hepatitis at the age of only 48. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/16 "2008-06-27T18:01:48Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Hunter S. Thompson had some choice words about McCarthy in one essay. Just your garden-variety thug who made it lucky. [/QUOTE] Uh huh. But the thing about Hunter is that he was only able to keep the crazy away for so long himself. I liked reading the guy, but his opinions on anything can’t be seen as authoritative. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/17 "2008-06-27T18:11:31Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Uh huh. But the thing about Hunter is that he was only able to keep the crazy away for so long himself. I liked reading the guy, but his opinions on anything can’t be seen as authoritative. [/QUOTE] Thompson was right about McCarthy lying about his war record, as confirmed by his [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy) entry: “It is well documented that McCarthy lied about his war record. Despite his automatic commission, he claimed to have enlisted as a ‘buck private.’ He flew 12 combat missions as a gunner-observer, earning the nickname of ‘Tail-Gunner Joe’ in the course of one of these missions. But he later claimed 32 missions in order to qualify for a Distinguished Flying Cross, which he received in 1952. McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation which he claimed had been signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, then Chief of Naval Operations. But it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer. A ‘war wound’ that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or antiaircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during an initiation ceremony for sailors who cross the equator for the first time.” But no doubt he reformed and “started out admirably” in politics after this. Or maybe the guy was just scum. EDIT: Going on in Wikipedia and taking a look at his early political career, I can’t find much that’s admirable at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/18 "2008-06-27T18:17:28Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Aside from the fact that McCarthy was right . . . [/QUOTE] What was he ever right about, WRT his Communist-hunting? From [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_mccarthy) > [@](#): > > In the view of some modern conservative authors, McCarthy’s place in history should be re-evaluated. Ann Coulter’s book Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism is a notable example of this. Coulter, a controversial right-wing author, devotes a chapter to her defense of McCarthy, and much of the book to a defense of McCarthyism. She states, for example, “Everything you think you know about McCarthy is a hegemonic lie. Liberals denounced McCarthy because they were afraid of getting caught, so they fought back like animals to hide their own collaboration with a regime as evil as the Nazis.”[99] Other authors who have voiced similar opinions include William Norman Grigg of the John Birch Society,[100] and M. Stanton Evans.[101] > > These authors frequently cite new evidence, in the form of Venona decrypted Soviet messages, Soviet espionage data now opened to the West, and newly released transcripts of closed hearings before McCarthy’s subcommittee, asserting that these have vindicated McCarthy, showing that many of his identifications of Communists were correct. It has also been said that Venona and the Soviet archives have revealed that the scale of Soviet espionage activity in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s was larger than many scholars suspected,[102][103] and that this too stands as a vindication of McCarthy. > > These viewpoints are considered revisionist by most historians,[104] and have been specifically challenged by Kevin Drum[105] and Johann Hari.[106] Historian John Earl Haynes has also argued against this “rehabilitation” of McCarthy, saying that McCarthy’s attempts to “make anti-communism a partisan weapon” actually “threatened [the post-War] anti-Communist consensus,” thereby ultimately harming anti-Communist efforts more than helping.[107] With regard to Coulter’s views in particular, the response among scholars has been all but universally negative, even among authors generally regarded as conservative or right wing.[108] > > **Although there are some cases where Venona or other recent data has increased the weight of evidence against a person named by McCarthy, there are few, if any, cases where McCarthy was responsible for identifying a person, or removing a person from a sensitive government position, where later evidence has increased the likelihood that that person was a Communist or a Soviet agent.[109]** ---
**Author:** ![RMutt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19b73/32.png) [@RMutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RMutt)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/19 "2008-06-27T18:38:59Z")
I’m no expert, but it seems to me that most of his hunting was for communists, not necessarily communist spies. the black mark that his reign leaves on our history is the fact that in this country you’re supposed to be allowed to believe what you want to believe without being persecuted for it (at least by the government). The whole episode cuts away at what is to me the fundamental American value, freedom of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445/20 "2008-06-27T18:59:28Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] But no doubt he reformed and “started out admirably” in politics after this. Or maybe the guy was just scum. [/QUOTE] Actually his record as a judge was quite good. And for all the venom that gets thrown around, certain facts get lost in the shuffle - like the fact that McCarthy stood as goddaughter to Kathleen Kennedy (Townsend), Robert Kennedy’s daughter and recent lieutenant governor of Maryland. McCarthy was close with the Kennedys, dated two of the Kennedy daughters, and helped get Robert Kennedy named assistant counsel of the Permanent Senate Subcommittee on Investigations - which launched his own political career. That is where he got national exposure grilling corrupt labor leaders like Jimmy Hoffa. And why did this happen? Because Joe Kennedy hated Communists probably more than McCarthy did - and his Democratic bona fides were never in question. So let’s not wonder too much about McCarthy. There would have been some sort of crackdown with or without him. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joseph-mccarthy-did-he-serve-a-positive-purpose/454445.md?page=2)